Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden • Hacker News Board

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#11

Post by Conjoiner » Sat, Jun 13, 2015, 9:32 PM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #5

nsns wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dilutes European culture and identity" But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically forged through their exploitation.) The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a sanctuary for his people fleeing tho…

Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed…

Causing the rape statistics to shoot through the roof is a bit of an impact.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#12

Post by ads_are_shite » Sat, Jun 13, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

I spoke with a colleague the other day and he made a reasonable point - the number of people reaching the shore is huge because of the success rate and obligation to feed cloth home educate and look after all these economic migrants. Hjs vision was a bit drastic for my taste, but the example was clear - no one would risk a people smuggling episode across the water, if the first world navies torpedoed their boats. No one would risk riding in lorries, if the border patrols would destroy the lorries. Essentially he was saying that if the journies were made so hazardous and risky, then only true refugees would try it, and economic migrants and welfare seekers would remain at base. A salutory point.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#13

Post by lllllll » Sat, Jun 13, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #5

nsns wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dilutes European culture and identity" But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically forged through their exploitation.) The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a sanctuary for his people fleeing tho…

Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed…

>> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous

Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Muslim-owned Muslim-oriented businesses. But hey! I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad thing, I just disagree with what you said. And the way streets look/feel when you walk down them is a great example of how Muslim(and other immigrants also ofc!) do have an influence on the culture and lifestyle in Europe.

>> But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society

I agree with that, refugees must be granted asylum in countries at peace. However, we must be aware that this is NOT addressing the problem itself, but its consequences; and hence the problem can only grow bigger.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#14

Post by lllllll » Sat, Jun 13, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

I believe refugees are mostly people in need that don't deserve the situation they find themselves in and should be given asylum in countries which are stable and at peace.

However, my impression is that they mostly request asylum in Western countries (EU, Australia, USA, UK, Canada...). Assuming my impression is right (correct me otherwise!). Why is it like that?

In the case of Muslim refugees, why don't they apply for asylum to Muslim countries, particularly those unbelievably oil-rich countries ( or even some more stable ones like Morocco for example), instead of some poor countries in the West such as Greece/Italy/Spain?

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#15

Post by throwaway_coz » Sat, Jun 13, 2015, 9:55 PM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #5

nsns wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dilutes European culture and identity" But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically forged through their exploitation.) The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a sanctuary for his people fleeing tho…

Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed…

Ah, another convenient use of "turns out". Fortunately, we are on hackernews so enough people are probably familiar with this very useful turn of phrase[0].

Anyway, back to the topic. It turns out[0] muslim immigrants from troubled regions import their troubles. No, for sure 100%(choose a number) of them aren't the sort that shouts for sharia law, but hey you are going to be importing those. Then what happens? It starts affecting your day-to-day.

I'm all for giving refuge. Hey, I'm an immigrant myself so I see all sorts of value in the arrangement. BUT, part of the reason I immigrated to get away from the crazies/troubles. I also have been able to contribute to my new country (oh the taxes). I am fairly well assimilated in my community and wouldn't dream of trying to change my current society to fit my previous one.

It's sad that political correctness makes it impossible for people to have an actual debate about this without being labelled ignorant/small minded etcs.

[0] http://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#16

Post by throwaway_coz » Sat, Jun 13, 2015, 10:02 PM UTC

nsns wrote: post #3

JesperRavn wrote: post #2

It's unfortunate to me that it is impossible to have a discussion about how this kind of immigration dilutes European culture and identity. The prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, said[0] If we don't stop their entry, the problem that currently stands at 60,000 could grow to 600,000, and that threatens our existence as a Jewish and democratic state ... This phenomenon is very grave and threatens the social…

"dilutes European culture and identity" But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically forged through their exploitation.) The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a sanctuary for his people fleeing tho…

I'm pretty sure every person[0] would choose their sense of "undiluted identity" when push came to shove.

Why?

Because fear of the unknown is a thing and muslims have been vilified a lot.

Anyway, Israel is very aware of the dilution effects. After all, they have been exploiting it (and much stronger arm techniques) to carve out their country.

[0] Unless you are Ghandi.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#17

Post by moubarak » Sat, Jun 13, 2015, 10:09 PM UTC

lllllll wrote: post #14

I believe refugees are mostly people in need that don't deserve the situation they find themselves in and should be given asylum in countries which are stable and at peace. However, my impression is that they mostly request asylum in Western countries (EU, Australia, USA, UK, Canada...). Assuming my impression is right (correct me otherwise!). Why is it like that? In the case of Muslim refugees, why don't they apply…

I don't know about oil-rich countries, but Lebanon has allowed over 1 million Syrian refugees in. I don't think it has to do with Muslims only, it's an Arab issue.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#18

Post by HelloThereHuman » Sat, Jun 13, 2015, 10:27 PM UTC

Wow... as a swede, this was a bit surreal to read. Wonderful piece, what a story.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#19

Post by cyorir » Sat, Jun 13, 2015, 11:02 PM UTC

lllllll wrote: post #14

I believe refugees are mostly people in need that don't deserve the situation they find themselves in and should be given asylum in countries which are stable and at peace. However, my impression is that they mostly request asylum in Western countries (EU, Australia, USA, UK, Canada...). Assuming my impression is right (correct me otherwise!). Why is it like that? In the case of Muslim refugees, why don't they apply…

Most refugees from Syria have ended up in camps in Turkey, Lebanon, and Jordan, not Western countries. Life in these camps is not especially good compared to asylum in Western countries with infrastructure for accepting migrants such as Germany; however, getting asylum in these countries is more difficult.

As for Greece, the migrants who end up there probably weren't looking at Greece as a final destination, but as a stepping stone for better destinations in Europe.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#20

Post by aikah » Sun, Jun 14, 2015, 12:43 AM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #5

nsns wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dilutes European culture and identity" But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically forged through their exploitation.) The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a sanctuary for his people fleeing tho…

Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed…

> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture.

You absolutely don't know that. Can you point to a specific study? then you just made it up. Turns out you are making stuff up for the sake of shutting down the discussion.