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Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

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Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#71

Post by seiji »

guscost wrote: post #69
seiji wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To start a "modern" project today, you have to know programming languages, infrastructure, and packaging systems that didn't even exist five years ago. That's the surface-level "technology" they (VCs) mean. VCs don't care about your deep algorithm knowledge or domain experience unless it can accelerate user-facing interfaces to the moon. If you hire people with 30 years experience, do they know what a Gruntfile is? D…

I get where you're coming from, but this should really be qualified by acknowledging that the overwhelming majority of software work is not "modern" by that definition and has nothing to do with any of those newer technologies. Most software products will never have to be deployed on 1,000 AWS instances. For example, I've never used a DevOps stack, a JS module loader or build manager, or an AWS instance in a professi…

Rampant proliferation of "new" also breaks the hiring process. Companies (i.e. "in-demand startups") want new stacks, and they want to hire people who are experts in everything that didn't exist 2-3 years ago (literally, 5 years experience with a 2 year old platform).

When that's the case, you're either a high school or college kid who can spend all their time learning new things, or you are old and learn new things a few hours a week, maybe nights and weekends.

You can't compete with someone learning (and iterating!) 40-60 hours a week when you yourself can't throw away all your 40-50 hour per week obligations and responsibilities just to keep up with them.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#72

Post by littletimmy »

michaelochurch wrote: post #61
Udo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm definitely old - going on 40 this year - and I don't recognize myself in that argument either. I think the reason why these points sound like they're made up is because they are, in fact, made up to justify something that's already been decided based on feeling.

31. The fact that 39 is "definitely old" is fucked up. Age discrimination isn't about competence (programmers peak much later than 40) but control. It exists because the VC man-child oligarchy (oddly enough, software inherits the age-discrimination culture from business-culture colonists who'd be "too old" to write code) thinks that people will work harder if this shitty, artificial time pressure is put on them. And,…

Don't know why you're being downvoted, because this is exactly true. Younger naive fresh graduates are much easier to exploit (or just force to stay in the office longer) than older, experienced people. That is why younger people are preferred.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#73

Post by edc117 »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #31

The denialist culture in tech and especially Silicon Valley is so absurd. Even in this thread people are scrambling to come up with excuses. There are many industries around the world where agism is rampant, and there is only ever one excuse: money and control. Young people are cheaper and more gullible. It's not a secret, far from it, it's one of the few things for which the cliche "everybody knows" actually applies…

Speaking as someone in the middle (mid thirties, have my masters, led several teams as a technical lead/architect, been up and down the hiring process), I agree completely. I've met several older developers/engineers that I have the utmost respect for, and so much of this field seems to move in circles.

Does anyone outside of SV/startups actually find this ageism nonsense to be anything but a convenient story? I can personally think of two excellent engineers that are 60+, and are some of the most amazingly detailed, experienced and all-around intelligent men I've ever met; age has not dulled them in the slightest.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#74

Post by michaelochurch »

seiji wrote: post #55
leaveyou wrote: post #25

I'm not "young" anymore and not "old" yet, but I'm quite saddened by this point of view: 'The young understand new technologies better than the old do, and are like a clean slate: they will rapidly learn the latest coding methods and techniques, and they don’t carry any “technology baggage”'. Software business seems mostly about exploitation of the naivety of the youngsters and less about software and programming.

To start a "modern" project today, you have to know programming languages, infrastructure, and packaging systems that didn't even exist five years ago. That's the surface-level "technology" they (VCs) mean. VCs don't care about your deep algorithm knowledge or domain experience unless it can accelerate user-facing interfaces to the moon. If you hire people with 30 years experience, do they know what a Gruntfile is? D…

You're getting downvoted for speaking painful truths.

There is a lot in software that takes more than 3 years to learn: machine learning (real ML, not tweaking off-the-shelf algorithms) and compilers and the like. The problem is that the man-child oligarchy that has taken over Silicon Valley (and, because of SV's influence, the industry as a whole, at least culturally) doesn't value fundamental or technical work (as opposed to doing "make the thingy work with the other thingy" Scrum tickets for a PM barely old enough to drink) so there are so few people doing it, and the competition for positions in real programming is quite high (and the salaries, sadly, aren't as good).

It's easier to get a real programming job at 30 than at 22, but fake programming jobs outnumber real ones by such a large margin. And when you're older and have a family to feed, being too old for the well-paid but fake programming jobs at the Hoolis becomes somewhat of a problem, because real programming jobs are so rare that it sometimes involves a cross-country move to get one.

Ergo, you're old and out of touch and worthless and go live on a programmer retirement farm in iowa because you're not a culture fit with the 22 year old CEOs anymore. yolo, and you wasted it by not becoming a billionaire by 28.

I think that attracting the "old" programmers to a specific city (possibly in the Midwest, say Chicago or Minneapolis, but possibly one overseas like Budapest) is the first step step in taking over the world. I'm not sure what the second is, but an industry that tosses people out just as they're beginning to get good at their jobs is (fuck this term in general, but here it applies) ripe for disruption.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#75

Post by netfire »

rayiner wrote: post #51
adevine wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone in a 14 year DINK relationship, I totally disagree with this. When you are in a relationship, decisions need to be collaborative - you can't just chase any opportunity that comes along without thinking about how it will affect your partner. Also, when I was single, I could spend the vast majority of my time working. In a relationship, not only CAN'T I do that (my partner would kill me), but I don't want to…

Even single people should be thinking through high risk decisions, so I don't really see your point there. A dual income couple has inherently more ability to make higher-risk decisions that have larger expected returns. As for time spent working, I'm a bit skeptical of that. It's not like single people don't have socialization needs that need to be met. My single friends spend a lot of time and effort on dating and…

I think the point is that the decisions aren't as high-risk when you are single and don't have other people to support (especially children). The consequences of failure aren't as high.

Instead of being able to share a place with a few people (maybe even sharing a room) and sharing utilities, internet, cable and so on, you are paying significantly more for housing, food, utilities, transportation (bigger car), clothes and insurance/medical costs. Those costs could easily be 3-4 times as much as a single person.

If you are a dual income family, you may also be paying for child care and have the extra responsibilities of getting your children to and from child care and/or school (let alone actually spending some quality time with them). Working late has a much higher cost and being out of a job has much greater consequences.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#76

Post by michaelochurch »

solve wrote: post #11
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #5

I wonder if there's a difference between the SF Bay Area and the rest of the country, as far as ageism is concerned in tech.

Huge difference. CA companies and investors (e.g. YC) specifically require your age to the interviewers. Using YC as an example, many interviewers are happy to publicly boast about using age as primary factor - I can link to to some comments written here on HN. In some other places, e.g. NYC, this is all generally believed to be highly legally-risky and no respectable employer would ever consider doing it. Shame on y…

Investors use age as a primary factor. Companies can't, for the reasons you described.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#77

Post by JesperRavn »

seiji wrote: post #55
leaveyou wrote: post #25

I'm not "young" anymore and not "old" yet, but I'm quite saddened by this point of view: 'The young understand new technologies better than the old do, and are like a clean slate: they will rapidly learn the latest coding methods and techniques, and they don’t carry any “technology baggage”'. Software business seems mostly about exploitation of the naivety of the youngsters and less about software and programming.

To start a "modern" project today, you have to know programming languages, infrastructure, and packaging systems that didn't even exist five years ago. That's the surface-level "technology" they (VCs) mean. VCs don't care about your deep algorithm knowledge or domain experience unless it can accelerate user-facing interfaces to the moon. If you hire people with 30 years experience, do they know what a Gruntfile is? D…

There are only two categories of skills/abilities. First, things that older people are better at, and are legitimate business concerns. Second, things that older people are worse at, and are not legitimate business concerns. There are some things that some people put it one category, and others put in another. E.g. tolerating technical debt, knowing the latest JS frameworks or accepting longer working hours or higher risk.

Total agreement is not needed on which skill goes in which category. What is very important is that you don't try to assert that there is a third category of things older people are worse at and are legitimate business concerns. That would be ageist and invite downvotes.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#79

Post by karmazeroed »

Younger workers cost less, and work more.

Ridiculous. Imagine the baking industry taking this approach - tell your three year old kid to go into the kitchen and bake a cake. Or how about toddlers running marathons - because they have to do a lot more running to get to the end.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#80

Post by seiji »

JesperRavn wrote: post #77
seiji wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To start a "modern" project today, you have to know programming languages, infrastructure, and packaging systems that didn't even exist five years ago. That's the surface-level "technology" they (VCs) mean. VCs don't care about your deep algorithm knowledge or domain experience unless it can accelerate user-facing interfaces to the moon. If you hire people with 30 years experience, do they know what a Gruntfile is? D…

There are only two categories of skills/abilities. First, things that older people are better at, and are legitimate business concerns. Second, things that older people are worse at, and are not legitimate business concerns. There are some things that some people put it one category, and others put in another. E.g. tolerating technical debt, knowing the latest JS frameworks or accepting longer working hours or higher…

Great points.

The proper flow seems to be: have experienced people who are better at strategy mentor inexperienced people who may know more modern tools and are better at immediate tactics (regardless of age), then over time the inexperienced people grow to become mentors to the new batch of inexperienced people.

But, in our current climate of ego-driven "22 year old amazing CEO knows everything with zero management training or management research," we end up with perpetuation of subjective confirmation-bias fueled "only 22 year olds can do everything" lies.

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