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Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

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Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#31
The denialist culture in tech and especially Silicon Valley is so absurd. Even in this thread people are scrambling to come up with excuses.

There are many industries around the world where agism is rampant, and there is only ever one excuse: money and control. Young people are cheaper and more gullible.

It's not a secret, far from it, it's one of the few things for which the cliche "everybody knows" actually applies.

Sure, many industries try to cover up this fact a bit, but only tech makes up such elaborate stories to pretend it isn't all about cold hard cash.

Obviously, there is a reason for this beyond creating a flattering self-image: Most other industries that exploit the young and naive have plenty of supply.

Good engineers however are rare at any age, so market forces aren't sufficient to maintain this exploitative relationship, it needs to be artificially enforced.

Resulting for instance in the insane situation that many older engineers are unemployed whilst the industry is importing cheap young and easily abused engineers from abroad.

(Full disclosure: I too used to believe the main cause for that was that these older engineers had outdated knowledge and no longer making the effort to learn anything new, until I became a hiring manager. And although I have nothing but anecdotal evidence (so has the other side btw), I will be so bold as to state that that is a big fat lie.)

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#32
post #3

This topic keeps coming up. I think someone should start a community for older coders. A place to brainstorm and help each other out. Edit: SilverFox (and Foxess)

Is it really because they're old? Or because they've established they are one trick ponies? I've met young programmers who I wouldn't hire (were it up to me) for the exact same reasons most people wouldn't hire the stereotypical old programmer. 'Legacy' dudes from a time who seemed to understand bad code as a way to always retain a job because who else would understand the shit they do? And then I've also met (and wo…

>almost repetitive cycle of trendy functional languages

This is interesting, please tell me more.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#33

The issue is really more practical: Young engineers can afford to take more risk, particularly if they are not married. VCs want people who can go all in on an idea that looks like an obvious fail, because often enough, the young engineers who don't know better actually pull it off. These companies become high profile and their founders become famous for being young and wealthy. When VCs profile the successful invest…

I think the single people can take more risk thing is a ridiculous trope that assumes marriage situations that are rare today (single income couple). A dual income married couple can tolerate more risk than a single person, for obvious reasons.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#34
post #23

I see a contradiction in this article: "After 50, the mean salary of engineers was lower—by 17% for those with bachelors degrees, and by 14% for those with masters degrees and PhDs—than the salary of those younger than 50." If 50 year old programmers are cheaper, why are they being discriminated against? see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9689232

"If 50 year old programmers are cheaper, why are they being discriminated against?"

There are lots of other ways to interpret this data. Looking at the graph, note that salaries are actually lower for 20 and 30 somethings that 50+. It's possible that a majority of really good software developers get out of programming by the time they are 50, meaning the overall quality (and salaries) for the oldest developers is lower than average.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#35

The issue is really more practical: Young engineers can afford to take more risk, particularly if they are not married. VCs want people who can go all in on an idea that looks like an obvious fail, because often enough, the young engineers who don't know better actually pull it off. These companies become high profile and their founders become famous for being young and wealthy. When VCs profile the successful invest…

> When VCs profile the successful investments, young, smart and driven all correlate.

I would be very surprised if investments with old, smart, and driven people were correlated with failure. Considering the bias against age is so strong, I believe more than one person would have reveled in pointing that out already if the data remotely allowed for that conclusion.

> Experienced engineers with families can seldom afford take those risks.

There's a difference between what they say the reasons for discrimination are and what they actually are. There are plenty of young developers with families and plenty of old ones without (including myself) - it's not clear at all that having a family makes you less likely to get hired.

I think the primary reason why founders only hire young people is also the reason why employees are more likely to be white and male, and it's got nothing to do with malice per se. The reasons you hear against the hiring of people belonging to a certain group always sound similar, and that's because they're made up after the decision was already formed on an emotional level. The simple truth is that most people like to surround themselves with other people who are just like them. For an entrepreneur more often than not this means hiring the young.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#36
post #33

The issue is really more practical: Young engineers can afford to take more risk, particularly if they are not married. VCs want people who can go all in on an idea that looks like an obvious fail, because often enough, the young engineers who don't know better actually pull it off. These companies become high profile and their founders become famous for being young and wealthy. When VCs profile the successful invest…

I think the single people can take more risk thing is a ridiculous trope that assumes marriage situations that are rare today (single income couple). A dual income married couple can tolerate more risk than a single person, for obvious reasons.

Add dependents and things get more complicated.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#38

I'm not "young" anymore and not "old" yet, but I'm quite saddened by this point of view: 'The young understand new technologies better than the old do, and are like a clean slate: they will rapidly learn the latest coding methods and techniques, and they don’t carry any “technology baggage”'. Software business seems mostly about exploitation of the naivety of the youngsters and less about software and programming.

Yesterday: Finance ran the world and bankers still do. Today: Software runs the world but developers do not.

Get the picture?

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#39

As a newcomer in my 30's I can only hope that this won't be true in Europe.

It is true in Europe. However, the effect is strongly dampened given all of the social and job protection legislation in most European countries.

This means the extend to which an employer can profit from preferring younger employees is very much limited.

Also, young people in Europe are generally less sensitive to promises of future riches because of both cultural differences and the fact that it's simply extremely rare that a European startup strikes gold.

The agism is the same, but it's easier to overcome since there's less profit in it.

There is a downside though: youth unemployment.

Re: Silicon Valley’s Dark Secret: It’s All About Age (2010)

#40

I'm not "young" anymore and not "old" yet, but I'm quite saddened by this point of view: 'The young understand new technologies better than the old do, and are like a clean slate: they will rapidly learn the latest coding methods and techniques, and they don’t carry any “technology baggage”'. Software business seems mostly about exploitation of the naivety of the youngsters and less about software and programming.

yes, that part is unalloyed nonsense, a just-so story told by the nontechnical to justify ageism.

I've got 30 years of experience at this point, and as a result, I grasp new technology faster than most; and the baggage of my years of hard lessons learned is of great worth to my team, employees and employers. As one might expect with any thinking profession.

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