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Lost Brother in Yosemite

nytimes.com

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Re: Lost Brother in Yosemite

#21

Post by davidw »

carsonbaker wrote: post #12

I think part of the reason base jumping is banned in Yosemite has to do with the spectacle of it. The National Park system was founded with a mission to preserve the serenity of our land, and to give its visitors an opportunity to experience solitude. But Yosemite Village is a lot like a city today. Unless you get more than a day's hike away from the valley floor, there's no hope of finding solitude or serenity. The…

> mountain biking

A heavy, shod horse tromping around and pooping all over the place is going to do far more trail damage than mountain bikes.

Re: Lost Brother in Yosemite

#22

Post by cromulent »

hueving wrote: post #17
cromulent wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article points out, there are many illegal jumps made there and people don't even notice. The very scale of the cliffs means that you probably wouldn't notice unless the open parachute passed through your field of vision.

And you don't think making it legal would drastically increase the number of jumpers?

Yes I do. I think a permit system would be needed.

Controlled areas such as Kjerag in Norway and Lauterbrunnen in Switzerland have shown that it can work.

Re: Lost Brother in Yosemite

#23

Post by baddox »

carsonbaker wrote: post #12

I think part of the reason base jumping is banned in Yosemite has to do with the spectacle of it. The National Park system was founded with a mission to preserve the serenity of our land, and to give its visitors an opportunity to experience solitude. But Yosemite Village is a lot like a city today. Unless you get more than a day's hike away from the valley floor, there's no hope of finding solitude or serenity. The…

That actually sounds like the beginnings of an argument for why it makes sense to officially ban BASE jumping, but to not enforce it very strongly especially when it's done in remote areas.

Re: Lost Brother in Yosemite

#24

Post by cromulent »

eunoia wrote: post #16
cromulent wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BASE is legal through most of Norway. Those particular sites are closed not because of "numerous deaths", but because the wall has much unstable rock and rescues and body retrievals are too dangerous. There are thousands of legal jumps made every year at (for example) Gridset, very close to Trollveggen.

> The use of parachute equipment not adapted for cliff jumping, the need for jumpers to find exit points by trial and error and difficulties associated with retrieving injured jumpers led to a relatively high number of fatalities. This resulted in Norwegian authorities making BASE jumping from the Troll Wall illegal on July 25, 1986. From the Wikipedia article. It's not like BASE is illegal overall here in the US eit…

I didn't mean to hit that crux, but yeah :)

What I was trying to say was: In Norway they say, don't jump here please, jump over there.

The reasons in the wikipedia article are no longer valid apart from the instability of the wall and talus.

Re: Lost Brother in Yosemite

#26

Post by mikeash »

eunoia wrote: post #16
cromulent wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BASE is legal through most of Norway. Those particular sites are closed not because of "numerous deaths", but because the wall has much unstable rock and rescues and body retrievals are too dangerous. There are thousands of legal jumps made every year at (for example) Gridset, very close to Trollveggen.

> The use of parachute equipment not adapted for cliff jumping, the need for jumpers to find exit points by trial and error and difficulties associated with retrieving injured jumpers led to a relatively high number of fatalities. This resulted in Norwegian authorities making BASE jumping from the Troll Wall illegal on July 25, 1986. From the Wikipedia article. It's not like BASE is illegal overall here in the US eit…

Sounds like a case where externalities are screwing with the decisions. If rescue costs are high but borne by the public then the jumpers are basically abusing it. But of course outlawing the activity doesn't actually stop it.

It's a lot like illegal drugs. It's a fun activity that's bad for the participants and exposes external costs on society. Seems like the standard solution of "legalize, tax, and regulate" would also apply here. Rather than simply ban these activities, maybe they should be made to bear the costs of rescue, either by putting liability on to them after the fact, or charging a fee up front.

Re: Lost Brother in Yosemite

#27

Post by pbreit »

cromulent wrote: post #11

Last time I commented on this topic on HN, someone called Dean a "career criminal". BASE is dangerous. Wingsuit proximity flying is super dangerous, whether from a helicopter or from an object. However, humans have spirit and some much more than others. These people are generally awesome. I know a few of them. We should celebrate them, and mourn them. Maybe they aren't the Wright brothers or Chuck Yeager, but there a…

That's fine. Just do it where it's legal.

Re: Lost Brother in Yosemite

#28

Post by japhyr »

eunoia wrote: post #7
japhyr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BASE jumping is inherently dangerous. Part of the reason it's so dangerous is because it's illegal. I used to assume people flew at night because it was a beautiful time to fly; I had no idea the legal status had such an influence on when they chose to jump. One of the inconsistencies that's not mentioned in the article is the way the park service harasses these climbers/ jumpers, but then calls on those same elite…

> Part of the reason it's so dangerous is because it's illegal Part of the reason it's illegal is because it's so dangerous. The argument goes that park services have limited resources for search and rescue. Engaging in such an inherently dangerous activity inevitably causes a lot of incidents draining those resources. I like BASE and fully support those who choose to participate. But maybe banning BASE in the parks…

> Engaging in such an inherently dangerous activity inevitably causes a lot of incidents draining those resources.

I've done rescue work in Alaska for most of the last ten years, and I've followed rescue-related issues fairly well for a long time. Elite athletes like Dean and Graham do not drain rescue resources. The bulk of rescue work centers around ordinary people who get into situations where they find themselves over their heads.

By the time people like Dean and Graham need help, they've typically already helped a good number of people because they have the skills to do so. Their contribution to the pool of rescue resources is a net positive.

Re: Lost Brother in Yosemite

#29

Post by cromulent »

pbreit wrote: post #27
cromulent wrote: post #11

Last time I commented on this topic on HN, someone called Dean a "career criminal". BASE is dangerous. Wingsuit proximity flying is super dangerous, whether from a helicopter or from an object. However, humans have spirit and some much more than others. These people are generally awesome. I know a few of them. We should celebrate them, and mourn them. Maybe they aren't the Wright brothers or Chuck Yeager, but there a…

That's fine. Just do it where it's legal.

OK, we would all like that, but if you are this personality type, trying to do push the boundaries of human flight, then you don't really consider that. You find the best place to do it and go for it. Sometimes the law is an ass.

If Dean had sat on his couch and ate himself into a 240kg shut-in, it would be legal, no-one would be commenting and objecting to the cost to society. I would like more Deans and less of the shut-ins. I think it's good for humanity. I think it's a shame when we denounce one and accept the other.

Re: Lost Brother in Yosemite

#30

Post by maaku »

davidw wrote: post #21
carsonbaker wrote: post #12

I think part of the reason base jumping is banned in Yosemite has to do with the spectacle of it. The National Park system was founded with a mission to preserve the serenity of our land, and to give its visitors an opportunity to experience solitude. But Yosemite Village is a lot like a city today. Unless you get more than a day's hike away from the valley floor, there's no hope of finding solitude or serenity. The…

> mountain biking A heavy, shod horse tromping around and pooping all over the place is going to do far more trail damage than mountain bikes.

The damage is to the serenity enjoyed by the people hiking or horseback riding, not the trail itself.
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