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Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

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Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#111

Post by fweespeech »

existencebox wrote: post #23
joelgrus wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do those who support Curtis appearing at the talk refrain from posting out of fear of career repercussion? No and yes. I have been pretty vocal about it on Twitter: https://twitter.com/joelgrus/status/606474432509394944 https://twitter.com/joelgrus/status/606673594198794240 but I've also been sitting on a 75%-written blog post that I'm hesitant to actually post. Not because of career repercussions (I have never had a…

I typically avoid posting in these sorts of threads, very little good has come from political debates on the internet that I've seen, but your last sentence pushes me to speak up. Status-quo social thoughtcrime is rather terrifying to me. There's no "easy" way to amend laws or lobby a system to address the issue, as one would against a governmental stance. It's also cyclical, as less "clean" people speak out against…

That is very, very true. It is, frankly, impossible to force change in such a situation unless you already have a large enough soapbox to be heard and can build a network of similarly minded [and widely read/heard] individuals.

I think, regardless of political affiliation, we have to admit to ourselves that most people are prepared & willing to silence people with beliefs they find odious. Please note that I said "beliefs" not "actions".

The right to vocalize and discuss our beliefs freely is something that must be fundamentally protected, most especially when it is odious. The only way to do that is to make it both legally permissible [as the law can apply violent force] but also socially permissible to the point of indifference for people to voice different beliefs [even the odious, bigoted ones].

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#112

Post by tjradcliffe »

leppr wrote: post #78

Well, he is an active detractor of Democracy, it's possible he could try to spread his agenda through technology (take a look at the colonialist imagery in Urbit). His view on gender 'roles' is also dangerously close to hate speech (and before any of you calls me an islamophobic: as a non-muslim white male he has no cultural heritage that could justify his opinion, so it's different).

I have very little idea what Yarvin's view on "gender roles" is but assume it's a traditional Anglo-European one that subjugates women to men, the same as virtually every culture everywhere has before the past hundred-odd years.

So this seems to suggest that you believe that "non-Muslim white males" have no cultural heritage whatsoever, which is... odd.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#113

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

Mithaldu wrote: post #77
nkurz wrote: post #8

In case you were wondering what Curtis's talk might have been about (and whether it would have held any technical merit) this page has a link to Clark's earlier introduction to Urbit: http://popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-... The "Exit, voice, and loyalty" terminology might seem odd if you don't know it's origins. It's from 1970 book by economist A. O. Hirschman that's coming back in popularity:…

I'm all for Strangeloop canceling his talk, however not for reasons of his political leanings, but because i consider Urbit to be nonsense and the way it handles itself to be dishonest. That said, this entire conversation has an amazingly suppressive effect on me. This is primarily because i come from east germany, have grown up in its social era until my early teens, and have seen how it changed since the wall fell,…

Please provide one example of a person being fired, or otherwise enduring serious economic consequences, for publicly voicing socialist or communist views. There are none. There are dozens of quite recent examples of rightists or libertarians or traditional Christians enduring serious consequences for free speech. In America we once had the red scare where a witch hunt hit socialists/communists. These days we have the "brown scare" hitting anyone right of Jeb Bush.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#114

Post by mcguire »

On the one hand, I find this situation disturbing, because a technical talk at a technical conference has nothing at all to do with politics. On the other hand, I somewhat understand Strangeloop's situation: it is pretty clear that even if this a completely technical talk, the other attendees would make it about politics---you know, the whole "bad speech should be fought with more speech" thing?---which would cause problems for the conference.

On the third hand, though, I find the popehat post, complete with the use of "social justice warrior", to be especially repellent. Although I do congratulate Clark on the ability to be a conservative intellectual---I now have a puddle of condescension on my office floor.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#115

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #103
scintill76 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counterexample? Does he fit here? Does he speak mostly on politics rather than other topics? Then again, his political beliefs/actions are so polarizing that maybe it's hard to separate them from his work in other areas (somewhat akin to what the organizers of Strangeloop claim in their case.) Does Noam Chomsky get heat for his political views? I was amused when I realized the Chomsky I'd heard about in CS class…

I think in Chomsky's case his work in linguistics actually overshadows his political work because he is so foundational. I wonder how popular Chomsky's radical left views actually are among techies...assuming what I hear about libertarian views being prevalent...its not necessarily a natural fit.

> he is so foundational.

And somewhat discredited at this point? I don't care to write up a bunch, but his ideas about universal grammar built on genetic properties have not fared well over the years. I know he's done other stuff, but that seems his main claim to fame, excluding the political stuff.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#116

Post by Mithaldu »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #113
Mithaldu wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for Strangeloop canceling his talk, however not for reasons of his political leanings, but because i consider Urbit to be nonsense and the way it handles itself to be dishonest. That said, this entire conversation has an amazingly suppressive effect on me. This is primarily because i come from east germany, have grown up in its social era until my early teens, and have seen how it changed since the wall fell,…

Please provide one example of a person being fired, or otherwise enduring serious economic consequences, for publicly voicing socialist or communist views. There are none. There are dozens of quite recent examples of rightists or libertarians or traditional Christians enduring serious consequences for free speech. In America we once had the red scare where a witch hunt hit socialists/communists. These days we have th…

I'm not very familiar with US politics. When i say attacked, i was primarily talking about the articles talking about strangeloop. (It sounds like you misunderstood me there.)

On the other hand, consider how "Obamacare" was attacked, and (if i understood correctly what came out of your country) changed, cut and successfully damaged, thus affecting wide parts of the US population. ( http://www.galen.org/newsletters/changes-to-obamacare-so-far... )

Also, i find it a little disingenuous to ask for something and in the same breath declare delivery of such impossible.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#117

Post by [deleted] »

Mithaldu wrote: post #116
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please provide one example of a person being fired, or otherwise enduring serious economic consequences, for publicly voicing socialist or communist views. There are none. There are dozens of quite recent examples of rightists or libertarians or traditional Christians enduring serious consequences for free speech. In America we once had the red scare where a witch hunt hit socialists/communists. These days we have th…

I'm not very familiar with US politics. When i say attacked, i was primarily talking about the articles talking about strangeloop. (It sounds like you misunderstood me there.) On the other hand, consider how "Obamacare" was attacked, and (if i understood correctly what came out of your country) changed, cut and successfully damaged, thus affecting wide parts of the US population. ( http://www.galen.org/newsletters/ch…

[deleted]

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#118

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

Mithaldu wrote: post #116
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please provide one example of a person being fired, or otherwise enduring serious economic consequences, for publicly voicing socialist or communist views. There are none. There are dozens of quite recent examples of rightists or libertarians or traditional Christians enduring serious consequences for free speech. In America we once had the red scare where a witch hunt hit socialists/communists. These days we have th…

I'm not very familiar with US politics. When i say attacked, i was primarily talking about the articles talking about strangeloop. (It sounds like you misunderstood me there.) On the other hand, consider how "Obamacare" was attacked, and (if i understood correctly what came out of your country) changed, cut and successfully damaged, thus affecting wide parts of the US population. ( http://www.galen.org/newsletters/ch…

Name one person who was fired for supporting Obamacare. That is the relevant question in relation to your unclear point. I dare say you don't even understand. Name one person who was fired for comments in support of the federal involvement in local police matters in relation to the Treyvon Martin and Michael Brown incidents. The left is in power. The only people getting fired are those in opposition to the left.

With regard to your link I don't know whether you're obtuse or spraying squid ink. The topic under discussion is consequences for voicing free speech.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#119

Post by TheCartographer »

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74
tjradcliffe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do in fact fear the "social justice" crowd and their ability to mess with people and their careers when they don't follow the party line This is something I'd love see SJW's here react to. How do you feel about the fact that you have created a climate of fear amongst people who disagree with you? Would you prefer convincing them of the correctness of your position, but willing to accept that at least by making th…

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

>You might be unsurprised to find out that free speech is not valued on the left or among "SJW" groups. I suggest you research this further, because I can't communicate to you in a single hacker news comment why this is, or what theoretical basis it has.

Who needs theory? Practicality tells all.

Extreme ideologies don't value free speech, because free speech allows the unwashed masses to communicate to each other just how ridiculous they think your ideology is. This is true regardless of where an ideology falls on the oversimplistic "right-left" spectrum: North Korea, Fascist Italy, Communist Russia, Oligarchical-Capitalist Russia, Cambodia, North Vietnam, Burma, Communist China, pretty much the entire Middle East, etc. The list goes on and on and on.

Suppress free speech and criminalize dissident thoughts, and you establish a social basis for staying in power - for the good of the people, of course.

It's unsurprising that extreme ideological adherents are always united in at least one common idea, regardless of the actual content of the ideology they are espousing: the belief that people themselves don't know what is best for their own interests and must be closely watched and shepherded (and culled) if they fall into an annoying habit of thinking on their own.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#120

Post by Mithaldu »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #118
Mithaldu wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not very familiar with US politics. When i say attacked, i was primarily talking about the articles talking about strangeloop. (It sounds like you misunderstood me there.) On the other hand, consider how "Obamacare" was attacked, and (if i understood correctly what came out of your country) changed, cut and successfully damaged, thus affecting wide parts of the US population. ( http://www.galen.org/newsletters/ch…

Name one person who was fired for supporting Obamacare. That is the relevant question in relation to your unclear point. I dare say you don't even understand. Name one person who was fired for comments in support of the federal involvement in local police matters in relation to the Treyvon Martin and Michael Brown incidents. The left is in power. The only people getting fired are those in opposition to the left. With…

Allow me to quote you:

    Please provide one example of a person [...]
    enduring serious economic consequences
To be clear here: People are being damaged through anti-left actions without even needing to have voiced anything. Plus, you can't deny that plenty people are trying to get people fired over this.

As for this:

    Name one person who was fired for comments in support 
    of the federal involvement in local police matters in 
    relation to the Treyvon Martin and Michael Brown 
    incidents. The left is in power.
What exactly was the federal involvement? What exactly was done that would otherwise not have been done? I do not know the details, and do also not understand how any of that connects to left politics. Please educate me.

Edit: I'm sorry for the edits, and i hope you see this post only after i am done editing. One last note on this:

    The topic under discussion is consequences for voicing free speech.
I was answering someone who was asking if people were afraid to speak up on the matter. I am saying, yes, i am, because i see american people who have many listeners brand me indirectly but surprisingly aggressively for my beliefs.
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