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Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

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Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#101

Post by sudioStudio64 »

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #75
almaIV wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in this reply you've had to use a metaphor for physiological abuse (a scar, a bodily mark of harm) to elevate the seriousness of emotional damage, to the extent this emotional damage is even lasting, and it doesn't have to be, while something like a scar is unequivocally permanent barring some kind of advanced cosmetic treatment. Whether some emotional damage is "scarring" (i.e. permanent) will depend on, well,…

I don't know that the mental machinery is as elastic as you say. Our bodies to indeed adjust to mental stress, in fact parts of the brain that respond to fear and stress will overdevelop in relation to other areas producing aberrant behavior. There are mental trauma, that has not been caused by physical trauma, that will end up being like the gash you describe never being able to acclimatize to. I take your point abo…

I don't get why this was downvoted. I was polite. I tried to articulate a counter point. Is it just that people really disagree with the hate speech part or that mental trauma can be as serious as physical trauma??

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#102

Post by hga »

almaIV wrote: post #97
sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that white nationalists don't take guns to their protests and marches? Do you think when the KKK meets, they're unarmed? It's hilarious to me that you seem to think leftists could set off an arms race. Also, what do you think the black panthers, weather underground, etc., were?

Were? The black panthers still exist. They have nothing to do with people calling themselves "anti-fascist" though. "Do you think that white nationalists don't take guns to their protests and marches?" I think the kind of person who talks about carrying around baseball bats isn't going to go to these marches. What you think is hilarious is on you and your weird sense of humor. If you go to a meeting with baseball bat…

Hmmm, I wasn't thinking of sdfghjkl34567 and company as cowards, but now that you mention the possibility, maybe it isn't a coincidence that the calm events (not protests and marches) they brought baseball bats (and hammers) to in the US, at least per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Racist_Action#History were in states where their targets couldn't legally carry guns. It would be interesting to check with Google to see if their targets meet elsewhere relatively unmolested.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#103

Post by sudioStudio64 »

scintill76 wrote: post #87
lrc wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought of eco-terrorism too. But then I thought of William Ayers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

As a counterexample? Does he fit here? Does he speak mostly on politics rather than other topics? Then again, his political beliefs/actions are so polarizing that maybe it's hard to separate them from his work in other areas (somewhat akin to what the organizers of Strangeloop claim in their case.) Does Noam Chomsky get heat for his political views? I was amused when I realized the Chomsky I'd heard about in CS class…

I think in Chomsky's case his work in linguistics actually overshadows his political work because he is so foundational.

I wonder how popular Chomsky's radical left views actually are among techies...assuming what I hear about libertarian views being prevalent...its not necessarily a natural fit.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#104

Post by sudioStudio64 »

lrc wrote: post #89
scintill76 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counterexample? Does he fit here? Does he speak mostly on politics rather than other topics? Then again, his political beliefs/actions are so polarizing that maybe it's hard to separate them from his work in other areas (somewhat akin to what the organizers of Strangeloop claim in their case.) Does Noam Chomsky get heat for his political views? I was amused when I realized the Chomsky I'd heard about in CS class…

I would say that if being part of a bombing campaign isn't an impediment to becoming a Distinguished Professor at UIC, then being part of a bombing campaign isn't enough to get him disinvited from StrangeLoop either, however many astonished tweets might have greeted his appearance on the program: becuase, in that case, it would have been easy for the organizers to separate his political thought from his educational t…

Just playing devils advocate, he had renounced violence by the time he joined academia hadn't he? He wasn't Carlos the Jackal. Honestly, I can't remember the whole weathermen story.

This whole episode does make you wonder where the line would be drawn in the future.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#105

Post by sudioStudio64 »

Mithaldu wrote: post #77
nkurz wrote: post #8

In case you were wondering what Curtis's talk might have been about (and whether it would have held any technical merit) this page has a link to Clark's earlier introduction to Urbit: http://popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-... The "Exit, voice, and loyalty" terminology might seem odd if you don't know it's origins. It's from 1970 book by economist A. O. Hirschman that's coming back in popularity:…

I'm all for Strangeloop canceling his talk, however not for reasons of his political leanings, but because i consider Urbit to be nonsense and the way it handles itself to be dishonest. That said, this entire conversation has an amazingly suppressive effect on me. This is primarily because i come from east germany, have grown up in its social era until my early teens, and have seen how it changed since the wall fell,…

I think it comes from scarcity and changing demographics... there is a very real feel of loss off status and power among the white middle and working class.

You are right about the crazy views on socialism and German politics in general.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#106

Post by sudioStudio64 »

nemo wrote: post #99
csense wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while pretending we're all some monoculture, which is ludicrous Actually, progressives do seem to be relatively monocultural when it comes to, as the article says toward the end, "tolerating everything except the outgroup." Either that, or the intolerant faction(s) are very dominant and end up getting their way quite a lot. As well as the examples cited in the article, another good example is Brendan Eich being for…

"The left" is an umbrella term for all kinds of causes that don't all share the same concerns, values, or goals, while "progressive" is basically a replacement term picked up once right-wing propagandists had poisoned "liberal" and "left" enough that some people gave up using them (which was a dumb move IMO). Environmentalists, labor rights activists, gay rights activists, and anti-war activists fit under the umbrell…

That was fantastic. Thank you.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#107

Post by almaIV »

sudioStudio64 wrote: post #75
almaIV wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in this reply you've had to use a metaphor for physiological abuse (a scar, a bodily mark of harm) to elevate the seriousness of emotional damage, to the extent this emotional damage is even lasting, and it doesn't have to be, while something like a scar is unequivocally permanent barring some kind of advanced cosmetic treatment. Whether some emotional damage is "scarring" (i.e. permanent) will depend on, well,…

I don't know that the mental machinery is as elastic as you say. Our bodies to indeed adjust to mental stress, in fact parts of the brain that respond to fear and stress will overdevelop in relation to other areas producing aberrant behavior. There are mental trauma, that has not been caused by physical trauma, that will end up being like the gash you describe never being able to acclimatize to. I take your point abo…

Physical analogies are dated when we have accurate terms now.

"There are mental trauma, that has not been caused by physical trauma, that will end up being like the gash you describe never being able to acclimatize to."

I'm not so sure about this.

Stress happens because of stress hormones. You can develop a tolerance to those hormones like you could develop a tolerance to any drug.

The range of experiences that human emotion can adapt to are vast. People in far more violent societies have adapted to far more horrific things. If we didn't have the ability to adapt to extreme shock we'd be screwed as a species.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#108

Post by tjradcliffe »

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74
tjradcliffe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do in fact fear the "social justice" crowd and their ability to mess with people and their careers when they don't follow the party line This is something I'd love see SJW's here react to. How do you feel about the fact that you have created a climate of fear amongst people who disagree with you? Would you prefer convincing them of the correctness of your position, but willing to accept that at least by making th…

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

Thanks for the forthright reply!

I've been involved in political activism of one kind or other for decades, mostly in ways that are opposed to your ideals, so I'm not one tiny bit surprised to find a lefty who is opposed to free speech, nor am I unfamiliar with the "theoretical basis" for such abhorent positions.

I wanted to cast as broad a net as possible in my question, as I know how eclectic the left is: the two major Communist parties in my country spent most of their political capital fighting each other while the mainstream drifted gently, and rather too far, to the right.

Your myopia, anger and hatred are unfortunately true to the rightwingnutjob's caricature of anyone interested in building a just society, which makes the job of sane social reformers more difficult. Just so you know (yeah, I know, we're you're enemies too... and it's important to have a comprehensive enemies list, isn't it?)

And while on the one hand I can take heart in the knowledge that you'll never get close to achieving your goals, I'm also saddened that you will spread so much toxicity into your environment on your way to ultimate failure. The world needs more love, not more hate, or more fear.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#109

Post by tjradcliffe »

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #92
saryant wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That one clearly does, hence the throwaway. (edit: parent edited post, this no longer makes sense. Original was about revolutionaries never expecting the guillotine to fall on their own neck)

Yeah, that wouldn't make very much sense. Far more revolutionaries have been on the guillotine than behind it.

Mostly put there by their fellow-revolutionaries.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#110

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74
tjradcliffe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do in fact fear the "social justice" crowd and their ability to mess with people and their careers when they don't follow the party line This is something I'd love see SJW's here react to. How do you feel about the fact that you have created a climate of fear amongst people who disagree with you? Would you prefer convincing them of the correctness of your position, but willing to accept that at least by making th…

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

> fascist

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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