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Hackerspace raided in Sweden

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Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#21
post #16
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case of encrypted data, can't the US government legally force one to disclose passwords following a raid? In other words they might raid a company, they find encrypted hard drives so they ask for passwords. Then does revealing passwords fall under "self-incriminating" or not revealing them fall under "obstructing justice"?

My understanding is that in the US, passwords fall under the 5th amendment. Here's an example where a subpoena ordering the defendant to enter in a password was quashed: http://www.eff.org/files/Boucher.pdf

The Wikipedia article has more info on that case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Boucher

In February of this year, the judge required him to provide unencrypted access to the drive.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#22
post #4

I think there is more to this story than people realize. My Swedish is a little rusty, but from what I read in the media and the police press announcement, the following happened: The Malmo hackerspace is located in a building that has roots in the squatter/anarchist collective scene. That group was organizing a party there where they were apparently selling alcohol without a proper license. During the raid of that p…

well, actually, the hackerspace is located in a building that is rented. The rest of the rented space is used for various of things, i.e. reparation of bicycles, cheap/free restaurant (mondays), concerts etc. The space is not a squatt.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#23

It is common in Sweden that the police never return computers once they have been raided. If they give it back, it will usually at least take some years, the computers will be old by then. Ugh. Stuff like this makes me so angry.

Agreed though it might not be a completely fair view.

Siezed computers would need to be held on to till after any trial - which could be years away. Otherwise the defence can call any computer evidence into question.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#24
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From over this side of the world it appears those protections aren't actually of any use: http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=9462 "Police seize DJs' laptops New police chief apparently condones policy that critics call illegal and punitive"

Doesn't matter what the police chief thinks the law is. It matters what the courts think.

Yes, but once your computer is siezed, you're screwed. It only takes one link in the chain to think it's a good idea.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#25
post #23

It is common in Sweden that the police never return computers once they have been raided. If they give it back, it will usually at least take some years, the computers will be old by then. Ugh. Stuff like this makes me so angry.

Agreed though it might not be a completely fair view. Siezed computers would need to be held on to till after any trial - which could be years away. Otherwise the defence can call any computer evidence into question.

Couldn't they just keep HDDs and give the rest back? Or would that be too logical.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#26
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed though it might not be a completely fair view. Siezed computers would need to be held on to till after any trial - which could be years away. Otherwise the defence can call any computer evidence into question.

Couldn't they just keep HDDs and give the rest back? Or would that be too logical.

yes possibly - though in my experience explaining that to a police office (with no disrespect meant - most are tech illiterate) could be difficult.

Then you have the huge issue of explaining that to the jury; the defence would probably still have a field day.

And finally, certainly here in the UK so this might not apply elsewhere, there is quite a strict mandate for handling evidence. Returning the computer and keeping the HDD's would almost certainly break those guidelines.

It's really illogical all round; the main problem being computer evidence is still treated with suspicion by Juries (probably due to technical misunderstanding) and greeted with delight by defense teams (who will take joy in asking obscure, mundane and irrelevant questions :D just to derail things)

Finally: complex investigations might really take months to complete (as in 8 or 10). And then going to trial can take upwards of 2 years.

EDIT: with all of that said I strongly disagree with the police actions in this case.

Not giving a list of seizures, even within a few hours, is definite grounds for massive legal action here. It would be unheard of, frankly.

Not giving computers back after, say, 5 months where the case was unproven or the computers irrelevant would also be wrong. In the case where information was found but no trial forthcoming stuff should be returned within 2 years.

I wont comment on the legality of the raid though; we are only getting one side of the story and it could be there is evidence to have raided them. We also haven't seen or heard about the warrant used; so we cant really speculate on the legality of the seizures.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#27
post #8
post #4

I think there is more to this story than people realize. My Swedish is a little rusty, but from what I read in the media and the police press announcement, the following happened: The Malmo hackerspace is located in a building that has roots in the squatter/anarchist collective scene. That group was organizing a party there where they were apparently selling alcohol without a proper license. During the raid of that p…

So then the Police entered the building ostensibly to break up an illegal party, and then decided to confiscate the computers while they were there? That sounds like a fishing expedition to me. I don't know what the law is in Sweden, but in the US there are 4th amendment protections against that sort of thing.

Sweden does not have any such protections.

All evidence is admissible in court no matter how it was obtained, legally or illegally.

Of course if you can prove that the evidence was obtained illegally you can file charges for that, but the evidence will still be used.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#28
post #4

I think there is more to this story than people realize. My Swedish is a little rusty, but from what I read in the media and the police press announcement, the following happened: The Malmo hackerspace is located in a building that has roots in the squatter/anarchist collective scene. That group was organizing a party there where they were apparently selling alcohol without a proper license. During the raid of that p…

According to the hackerspace page, the police had IT-techs with them from the start. Why would they bring techs with them if they where just going to bust an illegal bar.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#29
post #15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be misunderstanding what a cutaway lock is. A cutaway lock is a normal lock with portions of the casing made out of transparent material or removed entirely. Their specific function is to practice lock picking. And blank keys aren't tools with a single usage scenario. Good guys and criminals alike use them to copy or make keys. The important thing here is not to judge by the equipment, but by the in…

Local, state, federal, and whatever other applicable laws permitting, you should definitely learn to open easy locks with paper clips (optionally a pair of pliers and a screwdriver as well). We did it on the last day of the graduate-level security course I took, and I will definitely never take the security of locks for granted again.

They have their use, they ensure that only sophisticated thief get away with your loot. Makes for more impressive local news coverage than this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQqk-x7dD0Abest quote is at 1:40. Skilled practice a throwing bricks.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#30

It is common in Sweden that the police never return computers once they have been raided. If they give it back, it will usually at least take some years, the computers will be old by then. Ugh. Stuff like this makes me so angry.

This happens in a lot of countries. It's unfortunate at best, malicious at worst.

Today CCP raided a datacenter in Shanghai and over 10k sites were offline.

http://www.otaku.net.cn/viewthread.php?tid=7339

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