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Hackerspace raided in Sweden

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Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#11

Post by tsally »

fnid wrote: post #9

Why do they have cut away locks to practice lock picking and blank keys and stuff like that? Sounds kind of shady.

I think you might be misunderstanding what a cutaway lock is. A cutaway lock is a normal lock with portions of the casing made out of transparent material or removed entirely. Their specific function is to practice lock picking. And blank keys aren't tools with a single usage scenario. Good guys and criminals alike use them to copy or make keys. The important thing here is not to judge by the equipment, but by the intent of the owner. Most laws about owning lock picks reflect this pragmatic view.

Also, if you're attempting to criticize the activity of lock picking in general, realize that it is a long standing tradition in the hacker community. Sergey Brin is a prominent example of a "non-evil" person who tinkered with it [1].

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/10/technology/10google.html

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#12

Post by [deleted] »

rdtsc wrote: post #10
wallflower wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example: 2009 April FBI raid on Core IP Dallas data center http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=546067 > [Core IP CEO] Simpson added that there were 50 businesses without access to email and data due to the raid. "If you run a datacenter, please be aware that in our great country, the FBI can come into your place of business at any time and take whatever they want, with no reason," he wrote. Bruce Sterling foreshadows…

In case of encrypted data, can't the US government legally force one to disclose passwords following a raid? In other words they might raid a company, they find encrypted hard drives so they ask for passwords. Then does revealing passwords fall under "self-incriminating" or not revealing them fall under "obstructing justice"?

[deleted]

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#13

Post by aerique »

fnid wrote: post #9

Why do they have cut away locks to practice lock picking and blank keys and stuff like that? Sounds kind of shady.

At least in the Netherlands it has been common for hackers to be interested in lockpicking. The irregular magazine Hacktic (which spawned the awesome ISP XS4ALL) used to have features and tutorials about lockpicking.

I assume it is the same for Sweden.

And if you've got a curious mind I cannot imagine why you would not be interested in it!

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#14

Post by tsally »

st3fan wrote: post #4

I think there is more to this story than people realize. My Swedish is a little rusty, but from what I read in the media and the police press announcement, the following happened: The Malmo hackerspace is located in a building that has roots in the squatter/anarchist collective scene. That group was organizing a party there where they were apparently selling alcohol without a proper license. During the raid of that p…

the raid had probably completely nothing to do with the hackerspace and everything with their hosts.

If that's true, than the warrant would have been limited in scope. Clearly it wasn't since the police seized everything. You can be sure there's a larger agenda than busting underage drinkers.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#15

Post by _cbsz »

tsally wrote: post #11
fnid wrote: post #9

Why do they have cut away locks to practice lock picking and blank keys and stuff like that? Sounds kind of shady.

I think you might be misunderstanding what a cutaway lock is. A cutaway lock is a normal lock with portions of the casing made out of transparent material or removed entirely. Their specific function is to practice lock picking. And blank keys aren't tools with a single usage scenario. Good guys and criminals alike use them to copy or make keys. The important thing here is not to judge by the equipment, but by the in…

Local, state, federal, and whatever other applicable laws permitting, you should definitely learn to open easy locks with paper clips (optionally a pair of pliers and a screwdriver as well). We did it on the last day of the graduate-level security course I took, and I will definitely never take the security of locks for granted again.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#16

Post by tsally »

rdtsc wrote: post #10
wallflower wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example: 2009 April FBI raid on Core IP Dallas data center http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=546067 > [Core IP CEO] Simpson added that there were 50 businesses without access to email and data due to the raid. "If you run a datacenter, please be aware that in our great country, the FBI can come into your place of business at any time and take whatever they want, with no reason," he wrote. Bruce Sterling foreshadows…

In case of encrypted data, can't the US government legally force one to disclose passwords following a raid? In other words they might raid a company, they find encrypted hard drives so they ask for passwords. Then does revealing passwords fall under "self-incriminating" or not revealing them fall under "obstructing justice"?

My understanding is that in the US, passwords fall under the 5th amendment. Here's an example where a subpoena ordering the defendant to enter in a password was quashed: http://www.eff.org/files/Boucher.pdf

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#17

Post by bigiain »

jordanb wrote: post #8
st3fan wrote: post #4

I think there is more to this story than people realize. My Swedish is a little rusty, but from what I read in the media and the police press announcement, the following happened: The Malmo hackerspace is located in a building that has roots in the squatter/anarchist collective scene. That group was organizing a party there where they were apparently selling alcohol without a proper license. During the raid of that p…

So then the Police entered the building ostensibly to break up an illegal party, and then decided to confiscate the computers while they were there? That sounds like a fishing expedition to me. I don't know what the law is in Sweden, but in the US there are 4th amendment protections against that sort of thing.

From over this side of the world it appears those protections aren't actually of any use:

http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=9462

"Police seize DJs' laptops New police chief apparently condones policy that critics call illegal and punitive"

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#18

Post by jrockway »

rdtsc wrote: post #10
wallflower wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example: 2009 April FBI raid on Core IP Dallas data center http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=546067 > [Core IP CEO] Simpson added that there were 50 businesses without access to email and data due to the raid. "If you run a datacenter, please be aware that in our great country, the FBI can come into your place of business at any time and take whatever they want, with no reason," he wrote. Bruce Sterling foreshadows…

In case of encrypted data, can't the US government legally force one to disclose passwords following a raid? In other words they might raid a company, they find encrypted hard drives so they ask for passwords. Then does revealing passwords fall under "self-incriminating" or not revealing them fall under "obstructing justice"?

In the US, it appears that you cannot be compelled to give up your password. Even if you could be, it is possible that the obstruction of justice charge would carry a lighter sentence than whatever is on the disk would get you.

(But of course, if you are at the point where your hardware is being seized, it's possible that the government already has enough evidence on you.)

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#19

Post by jrockway »

tsally wrote: post #16
rdtsc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case of encrypted data, can't the US government legally force one to disclose passwords following a raid? In other words they might raid a company, they find encrypted hard drives so they ask for passwords. Then does revealing passwords fall under "self-incriminating" or not revealing them fall under "obstructing justice"?

My understanding is that in the US, passwords fall under the 5th amendment. Here's an example where a subpoena ordering the defendant to enter in a password was quashed: http://www.eff.org/files/Boucher.pdf

A good read, thanks for posting.

Re: Hackerspace raided in Sweden

#20

Post by jrockway »

bigiain wrote: post #17
jordanb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then the Police entered the building ostensibly to break up an illegal party, and then decided to confiscate the computers while they were there? That sounds like a fishing expedition to me. I don't know what the law is in Sweden, but in the US there are 4th amendment protections against that sort of thing.

From over this side of the world it appears those protections aren't actually of any use: http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=9462 "Police seize DJs' laptops New police chief apparently condones policy that critics call illegal and punitive"

Doesn't matter what the police chief thinks the law is. It matters what the courts think.
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