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Let Snowden Come Home

newyorker.com

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Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#81

Post by geophile »

As a practical matter, he can't come home. Not even the president can promise his immunity from prosecution -- one day there will be another president. The DOJ could drop all charges. And then impose new ones once he returns. And that is to say nothing of the possibility of his being killed, with blame cast on some nut job, and with all sorts of manufactured dirt on him released afterward.

Put yourself in Snowden's shoes. What could anyone in the government say to you that would convince you it was safe to return to the USA?

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#82

Post by rhino369 »

rfrey wrote: post #3

"As Snowden intended, the primary impact of the leaks was on political debate inside the United States." I think the primary impact has been the complete erosion of whatever goodwill the United States had among the citizenry (n.b. not the governments) of her allies. That obviously doesn't matter in the short term; but so many things don't matter in the short term.

Complete erosion is a huge overstatement. In fact, we are still probably better off than we were in the dark years after the Iraq invasion.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#83

Post by aikah »

fsdfewjfiekf wrote: post #7

As long as "home" means "prison next to Robert Hanssen and everyone else who sold secrets to the Russians", then sure.

He didn't sold anything to Russia, the leaks are public throwaway shill. That's called whistle blowing and he exposed the wickedness and the corruption of your "adored" government. But Ignorance is bliss for some.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#84

Post by loteck »

sneak wrote: post #74

Fuck "seeking some sort of deal with his lawyers". A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. He raised internal concerns over the illegal activities he saw and was told to be quiet. Snowden himself has said he feared what happened to John Kiriakou (the whistleblower who exposed CIA's illegal torture program) happening to him had he made an even bigger issue out of it. The people who should be supporting…

I also am an admirer of Snowden's actions in this case, and what those actions have helped to accomplish.

But when choosing how to respond on the issue of leaking classified information, I think the government has to look at more than just this case. Would every subsequent leak, inspired by this one, also be heroic? Unlikely.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#85

Post by electic »

hueving wrote: post #24
austinhutch wrote: post #6

If he were to come back to the USA and then subsequently be detained, I would join the hopefully overwhelming protests in favor of his release. I am hoping if such a time comes, that there will be a historic level of demonstration advocating for his freedom.

>I would join the hopefully overwhelming protests in favor of his release. All 12 of us would be fired up! More seriously, did you see the bit on John Oliver about Snowden? The majority of the US population have no idea who Snowden is. Be careful not to get caught up in our tech news bubble.

It is easy to also forget, however sad, that the people that do know of Snowden, and are familiar with what he did, think he is a traitor and should stand trial for his "crimes".

[1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-most-think-edward-snowden-s...

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#86

Post by dabernathy89 »

geophile wrote: post #81

As a practical matter, he can't come home. Not even the president can promise his immunity from prosecution -- one day there will be another president. The DOJ could drop all charges. And then impose new ones once he returns. And that is to say nothing of the possibility of his being killed, with blame cast on some nut job, and with all sorts of manufactured dirt on him released afterward. Put yourself in Snowden's s…

I can't say this for sure, but I don't think a presidential pardon can be reversed by a subsequent president.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#87

Post by snowwrestler »

geophile wrote: post #81

As a practical matter, he can't come home. Not even the president can promise his immunity from prosecution -- one day there will be another president. The DOJ could drop all charges. And then impose new ones once he returns. And that is to say nothing of the possibility of his being killed, with blame cast on some nut job, and with all sorts of manufactured dirt on him released afterward. Put yourself in Snowden's s…

Presidential pardons stick because of double jeopardy. If Snowden is pardoned for the crimes for which he has been indicted, he cannot be indicted for them again.

If Obama pardoned Snowden on his last day in office (as I hope he does), Snowden could come home.

If murder is the concern, Snowden will not be safe anywhere. Do you think that the CIA doesn't have people in Moscow?

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#88

Post by _jal »

eli wrote: post #34
nickbauman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree with you as long as we also indict members of the US state security apparatus in VA and DC and around the world who authorized these programs as well. I'm not holding my breath.

At the least, I think Clapper should be investigated for perjury over lying to Congress. But the fact that other criminal acts are going unpunished doesn't really have any bearing on Snowden's case. The crime Snowden is charged with is the same regardless of who else is charged.

"The crime Snowden is charged with is the same regardless of who else is charged."

Nominally true, but this approaches the cliche about the rich and poor alike being banned from sleeping under bridges.

So long as the law is unevenly enforced such that (for instance) Clapper is not targeted and Snowden is, the surveillance state retains the structural ability to frame the debate about itself, lie about what it does and severely punish anyone who exposes the lies.

That is not a system that promotes democratic oversight, especially oversight of a passel of agencies already armed with massive advantages in evading oversight not typically available to most other agencies, like (enormous) hidden budgets, specially crafted exemptions to sunshine, classification, etc. (And that's before we get to the really creepy things these agencies do.)

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#89

Post by mortehu »

hueving wrote: post #24
austinhutch wrote: post #6

If he were to come back to the USA and then subsequently be detained, I would join the hopefully overwhelming protests in favor of his release. I am hoping if such a time comes, that there will be a historic level of demonstration advocating for his freedom.

>I would join the hopefully overwhelming protests in favor of his release. All 12 of us would be fired up! More seriously, did you see the bit on John Oliver about Snowden? The majority of the US population have no idea who Snowden is. Be careful not to get caught up in our tech news bubble.

I think the being known to a majority of the US population is a way too high bar. In a 2010 poll[1], only 59% knew the name of the vice president, as mentioned in a Greenwald article[2] about this issue.

1. http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-s...

2. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/06/john-oliver-in...

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#90

Post by themeek »

derefr wrote: post #80
themeek wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I keep getting surprised that people I meet have no idea who Snowden is, haven't heard of mass surveillance or propaganda operations, aren't aware of the huge national security push being made by the United States across essentially every region of the globe, and aren't following national security legislation including the recent Freedom Act and 215 sunset.

There's a similar bubble in the PRC: if you talk to someone inside it, they know all about Tiananmen Square, Tibet, the recent Hong Kong protests, etc. Whereas if you talk to someone outside of it, they'll tell you the Chinese government is a beloved-to-neutral entity (like the Queen of England, a bit) in the eyes of the populace, and that American terrorism is responsible for most-any Chinese civil unrest. It isn't…

Most people I meet seem to be under the persuasion that China is evil, corrupt and dictatorial - a unique wielder of force and propaganda. And they also do not know much about the America's support of Chinese civil unrest or the self-actualized pockets of civil unrest.

Maybe there's a Venn Diagram of information bubble in there somewhere.

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