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Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

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Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#231
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the strong reaction is because the distinction between Apple and Google is much fuzzier and weaker than Tim Cook (and some commenters here) are trying to make it sound. Apple makes money from device sales. Apple can make more money by using private information (to improve their cloud services, selling the search default to Google, for iAds and so on) - as long as they don't do something with it that makes peo…

> There's a difference here but it's a difference of degree, not kind. True, but what a degree, and the difference matters [1]: - 91% of Apple's income is from hardware. - More that 90% of Google's income is from advertising. There's also a very big difference between trying to understand your customers better so that you can build a better mousetrap, rather than selling their information to third parties, directly o…

Apple does not just sell hardware. They charge for hardware, but they sell a well integrated combination of hardware, software and services. That's what makes Apple unique. Otherwise they would be like Samsung.

The question is how much the usefulness of that combined offering depends on collecting user data. I think the dependency is not as deep as for Google but it is growing fast if you look at the ever more central role of iCloud.

Google does not sell user information by the way. Google sells conclusions they draw from user data. I am concerned about the wealth of data Google holds about me. But I'm not that much less concerned about the data Apple holds about me.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#232
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of that is not getting "maybe you'd like X" emails from the App Store I use a fair variety of google products on a couple of different platforms and have for years. Google has never sent me a suggest-sell email. They don't hide the fact that they're in the advertising and marketing business, but they're not that unsubtle. Perhaps other people get suggest-sell emails from Google, but it's not something I've seen…

> Google has never sent me a suggest-sell email. Did I say it was Google doing this?

Yes, you did. You referenced the companies Cook was talking about, and he was primarily talking about Google. Google also operates the only software market that's close to the App Store in size, apart from the niche-market case of Steam.

One of my pet hates is people who imply something, then use "but I didn't LITERALLY write the exact words that say that". You can play that game forever - for instance, where in my first reply to you did I explicitly mention that you did say it? I never said you did.

Isn't implication a wonderfully deniable building-block of human communication?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#233
post #5

Software is eating everything, including hardware. If Apple is not capable of doing good software it's doomed. It appears to me that Apple is giving up on software. By software I mean the code that recognize things in my photos in Google Photos or the software that sort the items in my Facebook News Feed. Apple is incapable of doing software like that. At least today. So what they're doing is bashing those who actual…

I always organised my data myself in directories etc. and find any software that attempts to organise it for me to be incredibly annoying.

Admittedly, it seems most people's filing system is basically lob all their bits of paper in one room and shut the door hence the need for these "let me organise it for you!" software features.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#234
post #197

At the moment, this thread seems more like a YouTube comment section than a HN one. Though it's not exactly surprising given that Tim Cook's speech is obviously aimed at Google/FB. Let's start with the facts. Apple makes its major money in hardware. Google makes its major money in search. Obviously, iOS has to be able to compete with Android in order for iPhones to sell well. Google offers services like Google Now an…

The problem is that Duck Duck go doesn't provide as good results, because it lacks the personalized data. Google knows that when I search for Django I want the web framework. Duck duck go gives me that as well as many links to the film. I think option 1 is more likely for Apple.

> Google knows that when I search for Django I want the web framework

That isn't a good thing. http://dontbubble.us

Unless Jamie Fox someday starts giving speeches about Django framework, this sounds like a pretty weak excuse to use a google-style (i.e. 'personalised') search engine.

> I think option 1 is more likely for Apple.

Google's business model is basically selling aggregated user data - not in the form of raw data but in the form of targeted ads - for $0 (note, they aren't "free") services.

Apple's business model is about selling hardware and software, and providing a fairly complete ecosystem to use those products in/with.

Given that Apple's iOS+ecosystem accounts for close to 90% of the profits in the smartphone market, I don't understand this claim by people "Apple will have to adopt google's strategy to remain competitive".

If anything people are becoming more sensitive and more aware about the "creepy" factor of having all your personal information in the hands of some corporation that uses it for profit.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#235

I find taking pot shots at competing companies really cheap. Its 2015 and by now I think most people are aware that Facebook and Google collect all the information they can so that they can offer their services for 'free'. How many would really pay for email, cloud storage, search, social network, browser..? what guarantees do I have that the government will NOT have access to my data if I pay for it?

I do pay for email, cloud storage and browser. There's a strong argument my personal information should not be harvested by the folks I paid. But paying for things is entirely unrelated to the government having access to your data. The govt can require a company to collect personal information that passes through their hands, even if they weren't collecting it for business purposes.

How do you pay for the browser?

Are you talking about Safari and the fact that buying Apple hardware has subsidised the Safari development to some extent?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#236
post #106
post #30

Tim, if we're dumb enough to join your autocratic platform, then we're certainly dumb enough to not care about our personal data.

Do you use Google's autocratic platform instead?

True!

The only safe way is to use a dumb phone from about 15 years ago. Now where's my Siemens A50 or Sony w810i.... I know I have them somewhere...

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#237

This, combined with a few reports from a couple months ago, sounds like Apple might be ramping up a search engine competitor that could be more privacy-focused.

I would like to see that happen. In an ideal world, I believe, we would be able to pay for search, cloud storage, email, etc. with strong privacy and security guarantees.

I had never thought about paying for Search but I think it's a really good idea. A subscription to a search engine would be really useful.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#238

This is marketing folks. Apple's behavior towards Google changed dramatically after Android starting getting traction, and this sudden pivot towards pro-privacy is an Apple's attempt to damage the reputation of it's biggest competitor. Apple hasn't been consistently speaking with the same voice on privacy, both before or after Snowden, and Tim Cook's comments IMHO look cynically designed. Apple collects plenty of per…

Note: I think you should have started your post stating that you work for Google. It's relevant information in this context. 3) iCloud Photo Library is not encrypted client side in a way that prevents Apple from decrypting it on the server, so like Google Photos, Apple will have your photos. Having the data is only one part, the other part is what you can do with the data. Google's rights are extremely broad, althoug…

I'm not a lawyer, and this is strictly my own guessing, but I think often times these privacy policies exist to prevent being sued for regular app behavior. For example, ability to create derivative works, publish, or distribute content could cover things like transcoding, proxying, caching, and redisplay.

So for example, if you don't claim the right to create derivative works, then transcoding an image, sending it from a different CDN domain, etc could get you in trouble.

Trying to read worst case scenarios by reading between the lines I think amounts to FUD because the policies are authored for the judicial system, not the consumers. Lawyers try to stake out as much leeway as they can. These companies will be judged on what they say they will and will not do and that doesn't just mean the legalese.

For example, if Google Photos says they will not do X or Y with your photos, they will be judged on whether or not they ever do that, whether or not that particular restriction is part of the general blanket policy for all services.

My general opinion is to attack people for actually what they do, not what they could theoretically do. Really, do you think Google Photos is going to people's private photos and use them without permission in promotional materials without permission? You've taken a particular example (a public business listing) and applied it to a case like Photos.

If you link here: http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/

You find this:

"Because of this, after you delete information from our services, we may not immediately delete residual copies from our active servers and may not remove information from our backup systems."

Which seems to suggest that if you delete data, it will eventually be removed, but might linger on in old backup tapes. Now imagine you don't carve out such leeway, and nuisance lawsuits are brought against you because say, you only destroy your oldest backups every N months for practical reasons. Or perhaps an HTTP caching proxy ends up with a non-accessible copy lingering on its disk.

There's two ways you can think about such policies, cynicism or optimism. The cynic can assume the worst, and they want to keep your photos even after you leave, because machine learning algorithms predicted you'd be the best model for a new TV commercial campaign. The optimist will see it as part of providing a reliable, fault tolerant, cloud service, and that the data is actually used for what they say it is: to improve services.

If you want to be cynical and paranoid, at least be consistent. Run your own Cloud servers, don't upload unencrypted data to other people's cloud, that includes Apple, don't trust anyone, because they can always change their mind, management, policies, later.

But if you are willing to trust, then stake your trust on what ills have actually been done or not done. A lot of claims are continually put forward about harm, but IMHO, the only one that really hold any water are the ones that involve the government getting access to your cloud data, and that'll apply equally to all vendors in the jurisdiction, which goes back to the former point about cynicism and paranoia. If you're paranoid enough, you should avoid cloud services altogether.

BTW, Google is blocked in China, Apple isn't. What do you think Apple is doing differently in China that allows their services not to get blocked by the government?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#239
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also use personal information to help us create, develop, operate, deliver, and improve our products, services, content and advertising, and for loss prevention and anti-fraud purposes. We may also use personal information for internal purposes such as auditing, data analysis, and research to improve Apple’s products, services, and customer communications. https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ No time limit s…

You have to read the iCloud terms: Upon termination of your Account you will lose all access to the Service and any portions thereof, including, but not limited to, your Account, Apple ID, email account, and Content. In addition, after a period of time, Apple will delete information and data stored in or as a part of your account(s). https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/icloud/en/term...

This is basically the same as the Google terms, which appears to be, eventually it'll be deleted but no guarantees will made. Any Cloud provider worth their salt will have multiple datacenter copies as well as tape storage. It's not easy to go back and surgically delete data on tapes, so you've got to expect this will happen slowly, at unspecified times, for example, when old tapes or harddisk clusters are wiped and destroyed.

I mean, if you want to be pedantic, Apple doesn't say how they delete the data. What secure procedures do they use to ensure a clean wipe?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#240
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google has never sent me a suggest-sell email. Did I say it was Google doing this?

Yes, you did. You referenced the companies Cook was talking about, and he was primarily talking about Google. Google also operates the only software market that's close to the App Store in size, apart from the niche-market case of Steam. One of my pet hates is people who imply something, then use "but I didn't LITERALLY write the exact words that say that". You can play that game forever - for instance, where in my f…

Tim Cook specifically LITERALLY says that he is talking about multiple companies:

> I’m speaking to you from Silicon Valley, where some of the most prominent and successful companies have built their businesses by lulling their customers into complacency about their personal information

> where in my first reply to you did I explicitly mention that you did say it

You were the one who brought Google into the conversation. I said Apple don't send spamvertising emails based on App Store purchases, because that's a very easy concept to understand how apple could use the private data they do have (i.e. my purchase/download history of iOS apps) as a revenue stream.

I think Google should be avoided whenever possible, but I'm not stupid enough to think they're the only company with skeevy data collection policies at the core of their business model.

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