Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#101

Post by krisgenre » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:00 AM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #84

krisgenre wrote: post #79

I find taking pot shots at competing companies really cheap. Its 2015 and by now I think most people are aware that Facebook and Google collect all the information they can so that they can offer their services for 'free'. How many would really pay for email, cloud storage, search, social network, browser..? what guarantees do I have that the government will NOT have access to my data if I pay for it?

I do pay for email, cloud storage and browser. There's a strong argument my personal information should not be harvested by the folks I paid. But paying for things is entirely unrelated to the government having access to your data. The govt can require a company to collect personal information that passes through their hands, even if they weren't collecting it for business purposes.

Honestly, do you really think majority of the users would pay for these services?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#102

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:04 AM UTC

While there is obviously plenty of eye-rolling at the obvious digs at Google, I'm pleased to see such strong push-back against the government arguments for weakening or punching holes in encryption.

I think that in the long run, this will matter way more than which giant tech company makes a bit more money than the other.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#103

Post by krisgenre » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:11 AM UTC

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #51

msabalau wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvote if you want, but billions of people get value every day out of Facebook, Google, and Amazon knowing them. Saying scary words about advertising isn't going to keep people from abandoning Apple's premium priced lower quality photo service.

So I downvoted your original comment not because people get value out of machine learning (which I agree with) but that you purport that Apple is incapable of delivering something based on machine learning. Unless you're a core Apple engineer I don't see how you could know this for sure; it sounded more like an opinion that didn't further the discussion. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they use machine learning fo…

But you can't improve your machine learning without collecting huge amounts of data right? Google Now wouldn't be possible without their data. If Apple is against collecting data then how would they be able to build a service that relies on data?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#104

Post by gress » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:12 AM UTC

tolmasky wrote: post #60

threeseed wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know people from those teams as well. Pretty sure Siri, iTunes Match, iTunes Store, App Store, iMessages, iCloud etc use just a little bit of data so clearly they aren't idiots. And with the acquisition of the guys from FoundationDB pretty sure they will have at least some skill in high end database engineering.

You just listed a bunch of broken products that do nothing but make me skeptical of apple even being able to properly store my data, let alone analyze it. imessages is notorious for not even being able to deliver messages in order many times. It is easily apples worst service, and should be brain dead simple. App Store is s bare minimum store that's only real change since its inception was just now supporting videos…

What 'repeated public embarrassments' has iCloud had? Don't tell me you're referring to the celebrity photos social engineering attack?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#105

Post by Tloewald » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:13 AM UTC

dba7dba wrote: post #96

callil wrote: post #85

They are setting the stage for announcing the launch of their google now compete which they will sell as more secure and private (no selling your info for ads!) [0] This is all part of their marketing campaign. [0] http://9to5mac.com/2015/05/27/apples-proactive-to-take-on-go...

I agree. Don't mean to be cynical but every public speech given by Tim Cook (and everyone else of high profile) is about setting the stage for something. Aka posturing. They have too much money, control, brand, power at stake. And this isn't much different from Google blasting Apple for selling products assembled in sweatshops (not that google does that)...

Another way of looking at it is that they've built their business model this way and they're making the case why it's better for their customers and the right thing to do. Volvo likes to advertise the safety engineering of its cars. Is that cynical?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#106

Post by gress » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:14 AM UTC

johnrob wrote: post #30

Tim, if we're dumb enough to join your autocratic platform, then we're certainly dumb enough to not care about our personal data.

Do you use Google's autocratic platform instead?

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#107

Post by fpgeek » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:17 AM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #55

resu_nimda wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I do get value from Facebook ads, I very often see ads for vendors and events that I am interested in and did not know of before. Regardless, what is the value of Facebook being free? Would most people rather pay with their money or with their data? Can you make a definitive argument that giving my data to Google or Facebook costs me anything?

I am not disputing that people may get value from advertising but (a) it is not the reason people use the service and (b) it is not even close to being a popular feature of the service. And giving data costs you when something goes wrong. Dealing with identity theft, stolen credit cards etc is not fun a experience to deal with.

How, exactly, has Google's collection of personal information contributed to identity theft?

I suppose, on paper, you're more vulnerable to Google employees or contractors using internal access to steal identities, but is that a problem in practice (if so, I'd love pointers)? Or are Google's internal security measures and controls effective in preventing it?

Meanwhile, Google's done more than most companies to protect the information they have from third-party attacks (HTTPS, two-factor authentication, certificate pinning, and so on), probably partly because it is so important to their business model. Apple, on the other hand, has often been slow to implement new security features out of concerns it will compromise the user experience, leading to well-known breaches like this one: http://www.wired.com/2012/08/apple-amazon-mat-honan-hacking/

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#108

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:18 AM UTC

magicalist wrote: post #95

wvenable wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> credit card issuer no information about my transaction Since the credit card issuer is actually the one paying (and you, in turn, pay them) this doesn't at all seem reasonable. Apple Pay is the middle man.

Think PayPal. The bank pays Apple Pay, Apple Pay pays the vendor. Google Wallet worked sort of like this through the dummy MasterCard card (MasterCard knew about the payment and the vendor, but not sure if it knew who you were). But as Sophistifunk says, this would be an incredibly hard sell for an industry already extremely reluctant to team up with anyone or anything new.

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#109

Post by threeseed » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:22 AM UTC

tolmasky wrote: post #60

threeseed wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know people from those teams as well. Pretty sure Siri, iTunes Match, iTunes Store, App Store, iMessages, iCloud etc use just a little bit of data so clearly they aren't idiots. And with the acquisition of the guys from FoundationDB pretty sure they will have at least some skill in high end database engineering.

You just listed a bunch of broken products that do nothing but make me skeptical of apple even being able to properly store my data, let alone analyze it. imessages is notorious for not even being able to deliver messages in order many times. It is easily apples worst service, and should be brain dead simple. App Store is s bare minimum store that's only real change since its inception was just now supporting videos…

1. iMessages is not dead simple. Not sure if you've ever worked on highly concurrent, real time systems but they are never as trivial as it seems to the lay outsider. And whilst I can't comment on it getting messages out of order (never happened to anyone I know) it isn't widespread based on media reports.

2. Not sure why you are comparing App Store with Amazon when Apple has an equivalent: the Apple Online Store. It does have physical products and has to deal with figuring out shipping across multiple regions. It's actually comparable to Amazon since they both use the microtransactions approach to billing.

3. iCloud is free up to 5GB and isn't hugely overpriced compared to Google Drive/Dropbox given that it isn't just a drive. Agreed that it has a checkered past but actually is pretty good given that it has more functionality than what Google or Microsoft provides.

4. Siri was initially a purchase but was completely rebuilt on a pretty impressive Mesos based architecture. It is a world apart from what it was originally and as I've mentioned below the integration of Cue and Spotsetter should make them far more competitive with Google Now.

I am not saying that Apple is the best at services but I think people grossly underestimate the scale at which Apple is operating with some of their services.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#110

Post by threeseed » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 5:24 AM UTC

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #61

stephenr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All these companies are in it to win your private information, The companies he Tim Cook described, that offer "free" services and data-mine/aggregate/sell your personal information to fund the business? Yes. Apple has a vested interest in not collecting, analysing, aggregating and using the vast amounts of private information other companies do: they're seen by many as a premium brand, where you pay a bit more and…

> Apple has a vested interest in not collecting, analysing Do you seriously believe that? They are doing this non stop. Not a month goes by without my iPad requesting my iCloud password so it can back up my entire tablet, even though I've repeatedly declined to provide it. They are collecting and analysing PII data all the time. They need it because it's an arms' race. They will only stop if compelled to do so by gov…

Apple obviously needs PII because they are billing you for purchases.

You don't need to supply any of it.