Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#61

Post by zak_mc_kracken » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:13 AM UTC

stephenr wrote: post #44

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's still mostly bullshit, though, especially coming from a company using closed source software for most of its products. Nobody can really tell what they are collecting, what they do with it and how much of it they share with third parties (including governments). If you google a bit, I bet you will find similar speeches from every single big company CEO these past years: "Privacy is our number one priority, b…

> All these companies are in it to win your private information, The companies he Tim Cook described, that offer "free" services and data-mine/aggregate/sell your personal information to fund the business? Yes. Apple has a vested interest in not collecting, analysing, aggregating and using the vast amounts of private information other companies do: they're seen by many as a premium brand, where you pay a bit more and…

> Apple has a vested interest in not collecting, analysing

Do you seriously believe that? They are doing this non stop. Not a month goes by without my iPad requesting my iCloud password so it can back up my entire tablet, even though I've repeatedly declined to provide it.

They are collecting and analysing PII data all the time. They need it because it's an arms' race. They will only stop if compelled to do so by governments or by a privacy scandal.

> "We" are not all prepared to hand over private information.

Unless you tell me you never, ever use a search engine (not just Google, could be Bing or Yahoo or whatever), I am pretty sure you are in denial about that compromise. You are giving away private information all the time, you just don't realize it, or you are okay with the fact that "Getting good search results for this query is worth Google logging my IP".

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#62

Post by stephenr » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:13 AM UTC

msoad wrote: post #15

rogerb wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim's argument is simply that free is not free: google's business model requires them to monetize your pictures, through advertising etc. Apple's business model is to charge you for it.

So why they have an ad network? Why they collect your searches in iOS and OSX? They don't mind doing what Google does on top of premium prices but they can't.

iAd gives developers an easy way to run an ad-supported game/etc in the App store without the compromise in personal privacy (for the player/user) that comes from an ad network like Google's, that is heavily focused on highly targeted ads.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#63

Post by magicalist » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:16 AM UTC

mkozlows wrote: post #58

jacobolus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(1) Google also puts ads and other little tracking widgets (google analytics, G+ social buttons, etc.) all over the web, gathering massive amounts of information about people’s browsing habits unrelated to any direct customer relationship or informed consent. (2) Use of Google search does not at all imply that a customer wants all of their searches to be associated with their identity, processed, stored indefinitely,…

Re 1 - I agree that is by a mile the most problematic part of Google's business. It's not a problem that Google knows what's in the emails I store on their servers -- of course they do, I put them there -- but it is problematic if they know I go to www.controversialsite.com when they should have no reason to. But the implication there is that Google's most privacy-invasive product, by a mile, is Google Analytics, whi…

Analytics uses first-party cookies for the site's domain, not your google cookie(s). And you'll have to take them at their word, but they don't combine it with some IP address trickiness or whatever (though that would be a pretty bad idea if you want decent profiles anyway): https://support.google.com/analytics/answer/6004245?hl=en

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#64

Post by zak_mc_kracken » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:17 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #38

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's still mostly bullshit, though, especially coming from a company using closed source software for most of its products. Nobody can really tell what they are collecting, what they do with it and how much of it they share with third parties (including governments). If you google a bit, I bet you will find similar speeches from every single big company CEO these past years: "Privacy is our number one priority, b…

It's funny how Google advocates always "bash" apple for being "closed source" when this company ships the most popular Unix in the world... and all of their products, even the watch, are based on it. Yes, they do keep the Application/UI layer closed source, but so does google ("Google Apps"). Yet google has spend years propagandizing that they are "open" while Apple is "closed" and that plays right into the latent de…

> The idea that all these companies want private info and thus are all going to be evil is cynical.

"cynical: believing that people are motivated by self-interest"

In a free trade, capitalistic society, companies are by definition cynical, because the ones that are not go bankrupt.

> Apple is different because for nearly 40 years they have been honest and forthright and treating people different. Google says "don't be evil" and then goes out and does evil. Apple doesn't say it, they just don't do it.

I was with you until that last part. I would totally be on board with you if you say Google and Apple are both equally evil because they are looking after their own interest. The fact you think that google is doing evil and Apple is not makes me think you're a bit too far gone on the fanboy side.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#65

Post by stephenr » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:17 AM UTC

magicalist wrote: post #48

[deleted] wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

As I never tire of pointing out, he was actually pointing out how to protect your privacy from the federal government before many cared at all: > "People are treating Google like their most trusted friend. Should they be?" > "I think judgment matters. If you have something that you don’t want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in the first place. But if you really need that kind of privacy, the reality i…

The government doesn't force Google to run their business the way they do, dependent as it is on such huge amounts of personal information, to provide "better" (for some peoples value for better) targeted ads.

If Google don't track/store what I search for, what results I click through to, etc, it doesn't matter what the US government asks them for - they are technically unable to hand over data they don't have.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#66

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:18 AM UTC

stephenr wrote: post #65

magicalist wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I never tire of pointing out, he was actually pointing out how to protect your privacy from the federal government before many cared at all: > "People are treating Google like their most trusted friend. Should they be?" > "I think judgment matters. If you have something that you don’t want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in the first place. But if you really need that kind of privacy, the reality i…

The government doesn't force Google to run their business the way they do, dependent as it is on such huge amounts of personal information, to provide "better" (for some peoples value for better) targeted ads. If Google don't track/store what I search for, what results I click through to, etc, it doesn't matter what the US government asks them for - they are technically unable to hand over data they don't have.

I think, sadly, that's not true. The government can force them to change their business, and begin recording personal information that passes through their hands. Its very strange.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#67

Post by stephenr » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:19 AM UTC

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #59

[deleted] wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

As magicalist points out in his response, you are taking Schmidt's quote completely out of context. Don't feel bad, you're not the only one. Schmidt (and Google) are extremely pro-privacy and against sharing information with the government. Google must have like ten lawsuits going on at all times on the entire planet trying to fight intrusive data request from governments. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars e…

> Schmidt (and Google) are extremely pro-privacy and against sharing information with the government.

Privacy doesn't mean "don't share my data with the government".

> They spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year to prevent governments from gaining access to their data

Funny how you say "Google are extremely pro-privacy" and then describe the vast amassed personal information of users as "their data", referring to Google.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#68

Post by fpgeek » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:21 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #27

kbenson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because the relationship is between Google and you. The advertiser doesn't know the criteria that leads Google to show the ad to you, they just pay Google to know what they are doing and deliver relevant leads.

I know exactly the criteria google uses to show the ad to someone, because that's what I buy when I buy keywords. That google found those keywords in some poor souls email, and I don't have access to the email, doesn't make it any less the case that google is selling that poor souls info to me. Edit: New policy. I won't respond to responses when my comment is negative. HN is rife with people who are just down voting…

> I know exactly the criteria google uses to show the ad to someone, because that's what I buy when I buy keywords.

No, you know exactly the criteria Google requests from you when you buy the ad. That's most likely a subset of the criteria Google uses to display the ad (which can include things like the past performance of your ads / of similar ads, in different contexts, for different kinds of users and probably all sorts of stuff I'm not thinking of).

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#69

Post by magicalist » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:23 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #57

You see here, in all the apologists for those who violate privacy the real truth of the Hacker News crowd. Their hatred of Apple exceeds their desire for privacy, security, and an end to the intrusive police state we have. For years, literally since the days of the Apple //e, I've seen people online (BBSes then) attacking Apple because they couldn't afford one and got something else. This didn't stop when Apple start…

I'm tempted to flag your comment for the baseless and distracting claims it makes, but I'm going to hold off since it is essentially self-parodying. I am curious about the "You lot are a bunch of god germans" thing, though.

Re: Apple’s Tim Cook Delivers Blistering Speech on Encryption, Privacy

#70

Post by pervycreeper » Wed, Jun 03, 2015, 4:23 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #57

You see here, in all the apologists for those who violate privacy the real truth of the Hacker News crowd. Their hatred of Apple exceeds their desire for privacy, security, and an end to the intrusive police state we have. For years, literally since the days of the Apple //e, I've seen people online (BBSes then) attacking Apple because they couldn't afford one and got something else. This didn't stop when Apple start…

There seems to be a lot of commenters on this thread whose love for and dedication to Apple is clouding their judgement. Apple no more worthy of being entrusted with one's data than any other big tech company, for example: Google. The only difference is that Apple is not trying as hard to monetize that data, which is a huge red herring privacy wise, because it happens to have absolutely nothing to do with gov't surveillance.