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Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#121

Post by cmsj »

jordanthoms wrote: post #47
pgeorgi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USB Type C provides a standardized protocol for protocol negotiation. I assume that Thunderbolt uses that. It's already used in Type C to enable plugging in USB, chargers (PD spec), HDMI or DP adapters ( https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/dingdong ) and I think even to route PCIe over Type C. Adding Thunderbolt to the mix shouldn't be too hard.

I think the issue is, that if you have a thunderbolt over USB-C display, and plug it into a normal USB-C port on your laptop (say the latest macbook), it won't work, since the laptop doesn't support the thunderbolt signaling. So it's a new point of confusion - USB devices which are physically compatible but not electrically. It's something that could possibly be solved through the markings on the devices etc and I st…

I don't think we have enough detail about Thunderbolt 3 yet to know whether devices will be able to detect that they are connected to a USB port and not a Thunderbolt port. If they can detect that, they may well be able to choose to degrade.

It seems like an ideal way for Apple to be able to ship a display which can be connected to both thunderbolt and USB-C hosts, without the user having to care.

Obviously some Thunderbolt devices (e.g. PCI-E chassis) wouldn't reasonably be able to degrade to USB, but a good proportion of them, would.

I very much hope this is what is going to happen!

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#122

Post by wilsynet »

tw04 wrote: post #78
Roritharr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, there will be Plug-Compatible Devices that are not Backwards compatible, as evidenced by the Thunderbolt Port switching to it. Of course other Devices will follow that come without external power supplies and other features that don't allow for graceful degradation. Thats my point. If it all were backwards compatible as it has been until now, things would be great, but that door has been shut now.

Just so we're clear, you'd rather have to carry around 10 different dongles just so you can know, visually, what a port is capable of? I'm sorry - when I buy the laptop, I look at what the port can do, and I remember it. If I'm in a meeting and I have to use someone else's, I ask if they know. If they don't, I try it, and if it doesn't work, we move on. I can't come up with any scenario in which this is a bad thing,…

But he's OK that you can't tell USB v1 from USB v2 visually. Somehow he's able to discern or recall the date of manufacture but won't be able to remember that it's a Thunderbolt port.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#123

Post by cmsj »

orbitur wrote: post #37
donatj wrote: post #17

When Thunderbolt was first released it caused a lot of confusion in my office for people with DisplayPort who couldn't hook up to Thunderbolt monitors, bought for them by our IT group that really didn't understand the difference. I see this problem coming on strong AGAIN with this. This port is just USB-C while this other port is USB-C and Thunderbolt... That sounds like a load of confusion waiting to happen.

I think the Apple TB Display is comparable here. If you have a rare TB device, you're probably a professional, and yes, you'll need to ensure the TB logo is on the port. If it's an extremely common USB device, it'll work on any port, without exception. The Apple Thunderbolt monitors are Apple's fault. There was no reason they couldn't have accepted a raw DisplayPort signal, but they still didn't.

FWIW, one reason would be that they'd needed to have somehow worked a USB connection into the mix, for pure DisplayPort ports, otherwise you have no way to control the brightness, use the camera, or the audio output.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#124

Post by digi_owl »

And they leave out the one thing that would be interesting, a wiring diagram.

the C port is interesting in that it provides both USB pins and a set of pins that can be used for a number of functions (Displayport being its out of the gate use).

If this leave the USB pins alone, and make use of the supplemental pins for Thunderbolt, there will be no port confusion. Especially as Tunderbolt is already set up to carry Displayport data anyways.

Then it just comes down to the chipset to negotiate the right protocols.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#125

Post by cmsj »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #19
Already__Taken wrote: post #10

Seems to be trading all our different ports with the problem of having all levels of different cables? This port is going to be very expensive for the manufactures. If it does everything I'm going to need a bunch. Does anything stop OEMs making a row of identical ports that only 1 charges my laptop, only a couple take can use the fastest cable and I'm sure all sorts of potential shenanigans,

Is there any word on whether the cables will be different? I suspect the cables will match, but the protocols the port support will be determined by the controller chipset.

Thunderbolt 1&2 connectors have active electronics in the connectors, and that seems likely to stay in 3, so yes, the cables will be different.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#126

Post by hendersoon »

Sadly, the blocker for external graphics isn't the power draw, it's that Intel steadfastly refuses to license Thunderbolt for external GPU enclosures.

That's why you can't buy a macbook air and plug in a little $300 box with a GeForce 970 and play high-end games on it right now. There are no technical reasons why this won't work-- in fact, people have hacked together solutions that work great.

Intel doesn't want to let you do it.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#127

Post by grecy »

hendersoon wrote: post #126

Sadly, the blocker for external graphics isn't the power draw, it's that Intel steadfastly refuses to license Thunderbolt for external GPU enclosures. That's why you can't buy a macbook air and plug in a little $300 box with a GeForce 970 and play high-end games on it right now. There are no technical reasons why this won't work-- in fact, people have hacked together solutions that work great. Intel doesn't want to l…

Slide #15 in the presentation actually has "External graphics" as a bullet point, so maybe that's about to change?

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#128

Post by hendersoon »

grecy wrote: post #127
hendersoon wrote: post #126

Sadly, the blocker for external graphics isn't the power draw, it's that Intel steadfastly refuses to license Thunderbolt for external GPU enclosures. That's why you can't buy a macbook air and plug in a little $300 box with a GeForce 970 and play high-end games on it right now. There are no technical reasons why this won't work-- in fact, people have hacked together solutions that work great. Intel doesn't want to l…

Slide #15 in the presentation actually has "External graphics" as a bullet point, so maybe that's about to change?

So it does! I hope you're right, that would be amazing!

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#129

Post by grecy »

Given that it supports dual 4K displays at 60Hz with one cable, or a single 5K display at 60Hz with one cable, I think it's safe to say Apple are waiting for this to announce their new cinema display.

Anyone think they'll pre-announce it at WWDC (like they did the Mac Pro)?

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#130

Post by bryanlarsen »

digi_owl wrote: post #124

And they leave out the one thing that would be interesting, a wiring diagram. the C port is interesting in that it provides both USB pins and a set of pins that can be used for a number of functions (Displayport being its out of the gate use). If this leave the USB pins alone, and make use of the supplemental pins for Thunderbolt, there will be no port confusion. Especially as Tunderbolt is already set up to carry Di…

That's basically how it works. There's a pair of wires that run USB 2.0. Those are then used to negotiate what the 8 high speed wires and 2 sideband wires are used for.
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