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Dear Paul

zedshaw.com

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Re: Dear Paul

#101

Post by icebraining »

SwellJoe wrote: post #90
icebraining wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I can't speak for zedshaw, I think the problem with HN is that while it, as you say, shuns and bans anyone who speaks in an aggressive tone or who directly vituperates others, it also allows (and often supports, with upvotes) one to completely slander someone as long as they do it in a calm and reasonable tone. As an example, specifically regarding anonymous accounts and zedshaw: https://news.ycombinator.com/it…

If that is an example of the "slander" Zed speaks of, his response is way overboard. It has that "more hacker than thou" tone that I find annoying in anyone (and most annoying when I catch myself using it, which is often), but I can't imagine anyone would consider it slanderous. And, it is by a no-name account, which, I suspect, makes everyone somewhat less likely to pay it any mind. The idea that something like that…

Well, it's an example I came up with, don't hold it against him :)

Re: Dear Paul

#102

Post by [deleted] »

SwellJoe wrote: post #64

I worry about Zed. He's obviously a very bright guy, a very helpful guy, and a very productive guy. But, he also seems to be dealing with a lot of pain. It's true that the Internet hate machine focuses on Zed a lot more often than many in his position (as he notes, he isn't powerful, he isn't wealthy, he is merely nerd famous), and I'm uncomfortable with that and don't support that. I like to see the hate machine dir…

[deleted]

Re: Dear Paul

#103

Post by [deleted] »

SwellJoe wrote: post #92
derefr wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't, but I'm presuming a specific mechanism to that, because HN really doesn't have that much moderation (just dang, as far as I know, and previously just pg very part-time.) This might be overly charitable, so correct me if you know more: Probably these YC companies' founders—or, if they've gotten big enough, their social-media people—read HN. They see these things, and then, being wiser-than-most to how HN wor…

"I didn't, but I'm presuming a specific mechanism to that, because HN really doesn't have that much moderation (just dang, as far as I know, and previously just pg very part-time.)" This is not correct and has not been correct for the vast majority of HN's existence. There were a number of moderators in the early days, selected by pg, and there are a number of moderators now, presumably selected by dang. And, of cour…

[deleted]

Re: Dear Paul

#104

Post by zimpenfish »

bshimmin wrote: post #37

Do people really think HN's denizens are abusive? I remember usenet from the mid-nineties. It was really, really bad. People would routinely post very graphic messages about killing other people (and worse), and sometimes there'd be personally-identifiable information posted (like physical addresses), and all manner of other intensely awful stuff would happen. This was usually restricted to certain groups, but due to…

> Against all of that, anyway, HN seems incredibly tame to me.

Comparitive badness of online forums is just a variant of Dawkin's "Dear Muslima" nonsense.

Re: Dear Paul

#105

Post by DanBC »

gear54rus wrote: post #93
icebraining wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a recipe for the sterile PR speak we're surrounded by. If he's angry, why shouldn't he write angry? And the preoccupation with swearing is just puritanical nonsense.

I feel you. Sadly, almost no one else here does. I am yet to determine as to why, but everyone prefers smoothed-out shit to blunt truth. And the topics discussed here are not even that emotional compared to other possible alternatives. This is also said in the context of the recent 'blabla no negativity' rule.

"The rule is no gratuitous negativity. You can be negative, just try to at least be constructive about it"

"The rule is no gratuitous negativity you stupid fuck. You can be negative, just try to be constructive".

Which sentence do you think is goig to derail conversations and lead to useless but heated argument?

Re: Dear Paul

#106

Post by las_cases »

This article speaks at the heart of online bullying and how mediums such as HN promote it even without being aware of it it seems.

I am quite saddened that persons such as jacquesm[1] who are otherwise respectful individuals want to shove a fist in the mouth of persons who have been victims of bullying (such as he does on this thread).

And this post has disappeared from the front page in less than an hour. I am disappointed by the HN community reaction.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jacquesm

Re: Dear Paul

#107

Post by SwellJoe »

icebraining wrote: post #101
SwellJoe wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is an example of the "slander" Zed speaks of, his response is way overboard. It has that "more hacker than thou" tone that I find annoying in anyone (and most annoying when I catch myself using it, which is often), but I can't imagine anyone would consider it slanderous. And, it is by a no-name account, which, I suspect, makes everyone somewhat less likely to pay it any mind. The idea that something like that…

Well, it's an example I came up with, don't hold it against him :)

I spent a little time browsing Zed's comment history (after seeing his reply to the comment you linked). It does seem to be representative of the kind of comment Zed calls "slanderous", at least in the past year or so. Perhaps there's something else, or perhaps there are comments that Zed did not respond to, that are actually problematic in some way. But, what I see is a polite but somewhat negative review of one of Zed's books. If that is "slander", then I have slandered Steve Jobs so many times it's not funny.

Re: Dear Paul

#108

Post by corysama »

Maybe I spent to much time on 4chan. As in, any time at all. But, I was more than a bit moved when I heard moot claim "People deserve a place to be wrong."

I believe that arguing is a tremendously important and valuable activity. So much so that I'd argue that even tired old arguments with idiots and assholes are worth revisiting occasionally because sometimes, on rare and special occasions, idiots/assholes have something to teach you. Not nearly as often as they like to think. But, sometimes.

Usually they don't. Usually their arguments are ill-formed, confusing, irritating, a bit scary, pretty-surely not worth the emotional investment required to confront. But, if you don't occasionally perform a genuine check on your assumption that the assholes are also idiots, you shouldn't continue to confidently move forward acting on that assumption.

I think that HN is incredibly valuable. I think it still has a fine mixture of inspirational and questionable criticism. Not a homogeneous, consistent, reliable mix, but a fine mix nonetheless. But also, not a mix that is effortlessly self-sustaining, certainly.

And so, even though I disagree with him, I'd like to thank Zed for making the personal expenditure to call out HN on some of it's bullshit. He's on the receiving end of more criticism than most. Whether that criticism is inspirational or questionable is a good question... Either way, although that's a downside that should be expected from his, let's say, 'unusual' and highly public style, expected doesn't mean easy. I certainly have no idea.

So, thanks anyway Zed, you magnificent asshole, for checking your assumption. Here's hoping you find it in you to continue checking until you learn something.

Re: Dear Paul

#109

Post by barbs »

aikah wrote: post #9
kainolophobia wrote: post #2

I randomly found this after clicking on that other C link today (Don't learn C the wrong way or something), only to realize that I had no idea what I was reading but to note that it had just been posted. A quick overview made me realize this would reach the top of HN and that I no longer cared about the argument within. As an industry of people at the forefront of technology, why do we try to hurt each other?

I would be surprised if that news doesn't get flagged and killed(not by me I have no stakes in this). This an old a complicated story about people with ego being a jerks to one another especially in the Rails world. Rails used to be the new shiny stuff everybody wanted a piece of it because loads of $$$ so everybody started to be mean and tried to kill other's consultancy for greed. But the internet doesn't forget so…

> The best part about ripping on these guys though is this:

If they have a blog, speak at conferences, publish papers, or write books then they are public figures just like me. This means that thanks to Larry Flynt I can stab them in the ear verbally, insult them, question their sexual orientation, and say anything that’s true and they just have to take it. Their only recourse is to write their pathetic little rebuttals in their stupid little blogs.

Oh, the irony.

Re: Dear Paul

#110

Post by danso »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #44

Disappointing to see this at 139 points in under an hour (and still going...). It's just a lot of bile. I like Zed when he's talking about software development. I like tptacek when he's talking about cryptography or money or cooking or any of the other several subjects he's reasonably skilled in. I like pg when he's talking about startups. All of them are capable of getting their hackles up, getting in fights, saying…

I like Zed, and his contributions and writing are a credit to the community. But yeah, this attack seems off-base for him. From what I can tell, this was sparked by a submission [1] and subsequent upvoting of a critique of his book, a critique that is months old. That it got upvotes means that, well, it got upvotes, from 50 or so of the thousands of HN users who might be reading the site at any given hour. It doesn't mean there's a high conspiracy to shit on his work. If there were, would his books be so highly upvoted as they've been over the years?

I would love to see Zed critique the "Don't Learn C the Wrong Way"...it seems like a better use of his energy than ripping on Paul and the HN mods who don't seem to care directly either way.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9636605

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