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Dear Paul

zedshaw.com

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Re: Dear Paul

#51

Post by qrendel »

1) If every site shut down or removed commenting every time someone was personally attacked, even repeatedly, there'd be no one left. I've sustained my fair share of attacks in the past as well (not on HN), and had some abrasive interactions here as well, but the vast majority of comments on HN have nothing to do with the behaviors described. So claiming it's worthless and only serves to facilitate personal attacks seems pretty unfounded, except possibly for a few more well-known members who may be easy targets.

2) Posts like this basically show you've been worn down to a high degree of vulnerability and will likely encourage more attacks in the future. Want to see any of the involved parties hurt, or watch one side wage war on the other just for the lulz? Now it's easy: start an anonymous smear campaign against Shaw. (Though I'm not recommending this.)

My sympathies to anyone who experiences this kind of thing, but it seems a pretty counterproductive thing to post.

Re: Dear Paul

#52

Post by facepalm »

I only know of Zed because of HN. I'm aware that there are controversies about him, but overall I have a positive impression of him.

Just goes to show that other people probably don't think as much about oneself as oneself is prone to think.

Re: Dear Paul

#53

Post by jacquesm »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #15

People can say what they want about Zed Shaw, in the end, he built things. Things used by millions of people. And he does deserve respect for that.

Building things is nice and will get you respect for building things. Attacking people and being abusive will typically undo some of that.

The tech community has a couple of other examples of people that built things and that managed to lose a lot or even all of the respect they deserved for that because of other things they did.

Re: Dear Paul

#54

Post by derefr »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #44

Disappointing to see this at 139 points in under an hour (and still going...). It's just a lot of bile. I like Zed when he's talking about software development. I like tptacek when he's talking about cryptography or money or cooking or any of the other several subjects he's reasonably skilled in. I like pg when he's talking about startups. All of them are capable of getting their hackles up, getting in fights, saying…

> Also, it's sort of odd that it was directed to pg, considering pg has made exactly one comment on HN in the last year.

That's pretty much the point Zed was making, in an off-kilter way. Zed is all about real names, taking responsibility for things by putting your name on what you say, talking to people in real life to settle disputes because people aren't empathetic enough online, etc.

The abusive comments on HN need to be "blamed" on someone. Someone has to take responsibility for them. If there's no way to blame the commenters themselves, then the most obvious thing to do is to blame the person under whose aegis those comments receive the protection of anonymity. PG has the ultimate authority (or near-enough) to change HN such that anonymous untracable abuse is no longer possible through it. Thus, he's responsible for not having done so.

...is, I guess, the logic.

Re: Dear Paul

#55

Post by hueving »

Does this guy understand that HN is user-submitted content? It's like reading complaints from an old-man the first time he uses the Internet and comes across something offensive.

Re: Dear Paul

#56

Post by enraged_camel »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #44

Disappointing to see this at 139 points in under an hour (and still going...). It's just a lot of bile. I like Zed when he's talking about software development. I like tptacek when he's talking about cryptography or money or cooking or any of the other several subjects he's reasonably skilled in. I like pg when he's talking about startups. All of them are capable of getting their hackles up, getting in fights, saying…

You should only flag things that are against the guidelines. In that regard, I don't see anything about this particular post that is problematic. It has some bile, sure, but the man makes some excellent points that we would benefit a lot from openly discussing here.

The best communities are those that self-reflect. They don't sweep the criticisms under the rug -- and I perceive your flagging as an attempt to do just that.

Re: Dear Paul

#57

Post by Shank »

blfr wrote: post #20

Does pg run HN or even YC at this point? Either way, this post applies just as much to any website which allows user content. There were Wordpress blogs calling for false police reports, tumblr and twitter feuds where posters tried to get someone fired (and occasionally succeeded), etc. HN isn't even particularly bad in this regard or set to personally go after Zed Shaw. He has an account here and is often upvoted th…

Nope. http://blog.ycombinator.com/meet-the-people-taking-over-hack...

Re: Dear Paul

#59

Post by jkire »

> I hate abusive fucks

And yet he's sitting there saying things like "[HN] is a place for men with tiny little mosquito penises".

I once heard a piece of advise (by Caitlin Moran): you should never write angrily. You may be angry, but don't write angrily. People tend to react with the same emotions, if you come across angry then people will tend to respond with anger.

The guy is obviously angry and upset, but its completely masking his point. He obviously feels something is wrong with the way HN is moderated, but based solely on his tone I'm in no way inclined to a) take his point seriously and b) actually start a discussion about the way HN is moderated. If he hadn't been swearing like a sailor, gave some example comments that support his point, etc, then people would be way more inclined to actually get involved.

Re: Dear Paul

#60

Post by icebraining »

ghshephard wrote: post #12

I've read HN almost every day for the last 7 years. In that seven years, I don't recall ever reading a post that said something particularly slanderous about Zed. I have seen post after post about his Learning XXX the hard way, and, in fact, I've even purchased at least one as a result. The one thing different about HN is that if you even slightly start to get overly negative on a post, you are downvoted into oblivio…

While I can't speak for zedshaw, I think the problem with HN is that while it, as you say, shuns and bans anyone who speaks in an aggressive tone or who directly vituperates others, it also allows (and often supports, with upvotes) one to completely slander someone as long as they do it in a calm and reasonable tone.

As an example, specifically regarding anonymous accounts and zedshaw: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9276436

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