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Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

iflscience.com

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Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#21

Post by kbart »

ticksoft wrote: post #15

I'm divided on these sorts of things (I didn't used to be). Sure science classes shouldn't be teaching religion, but having governments decide what's an approved view for its population is bothersome. People should be allowed to make mistakes and when the parents realise that their kids are at a disadvantage then the parents should learn to gather together and fix it themselves. Encourage people to be active in their…

This move, more likely, is aimed to protect children against idiot parents. Much like vaccination is being enforced. People do have right to be ignorant and believe whatever bullshit they want, but forcing stupid/harmful believes on children should not be allowed as it may damage them for the rest of their lives. If I were in charge, I would ban all religion related matters on children under 18.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#22

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

ticksoft wrote: post #15

I'm divided on these sorts of things (I didn't used to be). Sure science classes shouldn't be teaching religion, but having governments decide what's an approved view for its population is bothersome. People should be allowed to make mistakes and when the parents realise that their kids are at a disadvantage then the parents should learn to gather together and fix it themselves. Encourage people to be active in their…

>having governments decide what's an approved view for its population

I don't think it's about governments deciding on an approved view, so much as government removing the teaching of obvious nonsense from schools.

Religious schools - which still exist, unfortunately - have no problem with forcing their approved views on kids, even after those views have proven to be harmful: as in - say - abstinence education instead of useful sex ed.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#23

Post by janvidar »

ticksoft wrote: post #15

I'm divided on these sorts of things (I didn't used to be). Sure science classes shouldn't be teaching religion, but having governments decide what's an approved view for its population is bothersome. People should be allowed to make mistakes and when the parents realise that their kids are at a disadvantage then the parents should learn to gather together and fix it themselves. Encourage people to be active in their…

Why is it bothersome that the goverment decides that it is illegal for schools to teach a lie?

Schools are a social(ist) institution put in place by the goverment to ensure people have an equal access to knowledge - a foundation. Schools also have to follow a certain curriculum which would give this foundation. A school cannot simply choose to not teach reading or writing, or teach that the earth is flat because they beleive this is the right thing to do.

This has come up previously with different topics over the years. In many countries it is explicitly illegal for schools to teach that the Holocaust ever happened, or use text books that alledge this.

And, this is probably a good thing.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#24

Post by pjc50 »

Sharlin wrote: post #18
kbart wrote: post #14

I find it funny and sad that in 21st century we still have to explicitly prohibit such thing. Up next -- "Tooth faery theory banned from dental schools".

It was not banned. It was never permitted in the first place, or more accurately, the issue was never even raised before this. A special interest group asked the government to ban it, the government answered that of course it's not allowed in science class as it's not science, there's nothong that has to be done, the group decided to interpret the matter-of-factly reply as "banning". There was no administrative actio…

I don't know why this got a downvote as it's an accurate summary of the article.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#25

Post by wbillingsley »

kbart wrote: post #14

I find it funny and sad that in 21st century we still have to explicitly prohibit such thing. Up next -- "Tooth faery theory banned from dental schools".

There's nothing in the article to suggest they actually did have to (quite the contrary -- the government had been replying for ages that there wasn't a need for a ban).

Perhaps I'm cynical, but it seems to have gone like this...

"Minister, when will the Government ban bandersnatches from school cupboards?"

"Um, I'm pretty sure there aren't any bandersnatches in the school cupboards..."

"Minister refuses to ban bandersnatches from school cupboards! Everyone, sign our petition to insist that school cupboards are no place for a bandersnatch, and join our team!"

"I really don't think we have any..."

"The government is still refusing to institute a proper ban on keeping them in school cupboards, and putting our children's education at risk! Like us on Facebook! Tweet our campaign link! With your help we can make them move on this!"

"But we really... oh, forget it, fine, we hereby ban bandersnatches from school cupboards, will you go away now please?"

"Hooray! Thanks to our campaign, the government has finally banned bandersnatches from school broom cupboards. This is why you should donate to us -- remember, we're the organisation that finally made the government ban bandersnatches from school cupboards, and you can make your donation to us at this address..."

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#26

Post by pjc50 »

geomark wrote: post #13
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, despite the current story, it's not really a thing in Scotland or the UK either. I think this was prompted by some American faith groups getting involved in some schools in Scotland. The reason they weren't previously banned is because no-one thought it would come up.

This is interesting. I would have thought this was one of the factors dragging down math and science test scores in many western countries. The latest OECD rankings of 15 year olds in math and science put the UK at 20th and US at 28th. Seems pretty poor considering a country like Vietnam which was ravaged by war only a generation ago ranks 12th. FYI Top 10 [1]: 1.Singapore 2.Hong Kong 3.South Korea 4.Japan (joint) 5.…

I think the Western poor performance is a result of (a) terrible disorganisation in the education bureaucracy and (b) a lack of belief by people at the low end in the value of education for social mobility.

It's very easy for someone who didn't get educational opportunities to believe that making their kids do well will go better for them. In the West, there are a noticeable minority of people who did OK in the standard education, did badly in the search for work, and now have kids.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#27

Post by mattmanser »

s_dev wrote: post #19

Most of the UK and Ireland are arguably secular (but not technically) with most people holding reasonable scientifically literate beliefs. Northern Ireland however is the last bastion of open religious bigotry and nonsense in the UK. Classic example. Republic of Ireland passed a Gay Marriage referendum last week while at the same time in NI a confectionary baker "Ashers" in Northern Ireland refused to serve a gay man…

I didn't d/v you, but I think if you dig into a few more of your friends views you'd find a lot more religion than you realise.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#28

Post by pjc50 »

ticksoft wrote: post #15

I'm divided on these sorts of things (I didn't used to be). Sure science classes shouldn't be teaching religion, but having governments decide what's an approved view for its population is bothersome. People should be allowed to make mistakes and when the parents realise that their kids are at a disadvantage then the parents should learn to gather together and fix it themselves. Encourage people to be active in their…

approved view for its population

This is not that, though; it's a question of what's taught in schools. There has to be a curriculum. By necessity of the limits of time and effort, this can only include a finite number of things. For administrative efficiency, this is centralised in Scotland (and separately in England&Wales). Teaching creationism as science is simply a category error. Teaching it as fact is a factual error.

You're still free to take your children to Sunday school and teach them whatever you want there.(+)

(+) well, apart from the banned sectarian football songs

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#29

Post by peteretep »

Sharlin wrote: post #18
kbart wrote: post #14

I find it funny and sad that in 21st century we still have to explicitly prohibit such thing. Up next -- "Tooth faery theory banned from dental schools".

It was not banned. It was never permitted in the first place, or more accurately, the issue was never even raised before this. A special interest group asked the government to ban it, the government answered that of course it's not allowed in science class as it's not science, there's nothong that has to be done, the group decided to interpret the matter-of-factly reply as "banning". There was no administrative actio…

15-16 years ago it was being taught as a "some people think this happened instead of evolution lol" for GCSE biology.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#30

Post by crusso »

earlyriser wrote: post #8
goodJobWalrus wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really a thing in the rest of the world? I thought it was mostly the US, and even there mostly the homeschooling thing.

That's also my perspective. I grew up in Mexico, a very Catholic country and I went to a private Catholic school and we had religious classes and science classes. The content of both wasn't mixed, we had "brothers" giving the religious ones, and real scientists (Chemists, Biologists) giving the science ones. Even priests conceded that the Genesis story was a metaphor.

The Catholic church's leadership has taught that there's no conflict between Evolution and Christianity for at least the past 60 years.
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