Live data from Hacker News

My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

minvolai.com

41–50 of 54 posts

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#41
post #38
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got downvoted for making an extreme claim (crime riddled; extremely dangerous place to live) that just isn't supported by stats, and then claiming that the stats are wrong. Assuming for the moment that the police stats are wrong we'd still see increased insurance costs for people living in Coventry, and we don't. Support your claims with more than anecdote.

Insurance costs are taken from crime statistics and insurance claims. Nobody I know has insurance. the problem is that this data is completely off-radar. The Coventry people are incredibly insular and untrusting. The idea is that you are either alone, or with your community- if you're community rejects you because you don't like their kids putting rotting fish in your letter box (for example) then you're on your own.…

You keep saying that Coventry is riddled with crime, but you have nothing but feels to support you.

It's not persuasive, especially in the face of reported police stats; of the British Crime Survey; of insirance prices; of house prices; of murder rates; there's nothing anywhere that supports your outlandish claim.

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...it does seem that a lot of girls in tech are making a career of painting > all other engineers as being inherently misogynistic, vacuous or malicious. Be very wary of hyperbole on topics like this. It's deeply divisive. If you can't make your point without exaggerating then maybe rethink? > I think it's very popular to be a social justice kind of person... So you're saying that people are promoting an equitable…

> So you're saying that people are promoting an equitable > tech industry because they think it's cool? It is not cool, it is just easy. No effort to understand a problem even less effort to understand is there really a problem, just band your keyboard and rant how offended you are by this or by that. I think this is a result of responsibility collapse—by that I mean that some topics have become so knee-jerky, so whe…

  It is not cool, it is just easy. No effort to understand a problem even less 
  effort to understand is there really a problem...
So people who talk on this topic aren't thoughtful? Sure some aren't, but that's the same for any topic. You're cherry picking there, it doesn't stick.

I'm currently working in an organisation that specialises in behavioural science, we have the actual data on this. If you look at the studies there's overwhelming evidence to support an opinion that these problems are real. Women and different ethnic groups are treated in different ways with regard to things like hiring, performance reviews, etc. and there's a significant enough difference that the system could be defined as racist and sexist, even though no individual feels that they themselves are racist or sexist.

If you want citations... here are some just relating to the field of gender and employment...

Female job applicants with children considered less warm, likeable and committed than male applicants with children. Successful mothers penalized for promotion, hire, and salary (Benard and Correll, 2010). Women expressing anger more penalised than men (Brescoll & Uhlmann, 2008). People in gender-incongruent roles penalised more heavily for mistakes (Brescoll, Dawson, & Uhlmann, 2010). Voluble women perceived as less competent and less suitable leaders, inverse true for men (Brescoll, 2011). Men who work for women in stereotypically male dominated fields accorded less status and lower salaries (Brescoll et al, 2012). Women who succeed in male-dominated fields percieved as not likeable (Heilman et al, 2004). Students question the competence of female teachers who evaluate them negatively, less so than male teachers (Sinclair & Kunda 2000). Female students seen as less competent than identical male students, offered lower starting salaries (Moss-Racusin et al, 2012)

  ... even some words are taboo the concepts behind them are inaccessible 
  so people are not able to think about them. This results in people not 
  really understanding what racism is...
This point is broadly right (you have cause and effect inverted), but it doesn't just apply to "SJWs" as you're implying. People in general don't have a vocabulary to talk about racism and sexism. People don't typically identify as racists. They think "racists are 'bad people' and I'm a 'good person' so I can't be one", but in fact race is a more complex beast in the 21st century so we need a more complex vocabulary to describe it without triggering defensiveness.

Using 'social justice warrior' as a snarl-word is a sign that you feel defensive and uncomfortable. But that discomfort doesn't mean the 'SJWs' are wrong, it just means we as a species don't have a good set of verbal tools to communicate with each other about what's happening.

I'd recommend reading this, it's long but worth it if you actually care about this topic: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/good-men-project/why-its-so-ha...

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you're saying that people are promoting an equitable > tech industry because they think it's cool? It is not cool, it is just easy. No effort to understand a problem even less effort to understand is there really a problem, just band your keyboard and rant how offended you are by this or by that. I think this is a result of responsibility collapse—by that I mean that some topics have become so knee-jerky, so whe…

It is not cool, it is just easy. No effort to understand a problem even less effort to understand is there really a problem... So people who talk on this topic aren't thoughtful? Sure some aren't, but that's the same for any topic. You're cherry picking there, it doesn't stick. I'm currently working in an organisation that specialises in behavioural science, we have the actual data on this. If you look at the studies…

> Women and different ethnic groups are treated in different ways with regard to things like hiring, performance reviews, etc. and there's a significant enough difference that the system could be defined as racist and sexist, even though no individual feels that they themselves are racist or sexist.

I think the issue here is that the difference in treatment is only an issue for a subset of races and genders in certain industries.

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not cool, it is just easy. No effort to understand a problem even less effort to understand is there really a problem... So people who talk on this topic aren't thoughtful? Sure some aren't, but that's the same for any topic. You're cherry picking there, it doesn't stick. I'm currently working in an organisation that specialises in behavioural science, we have the actual data on this. If you look at the studies…

> Women and different ethnic groups are treated in different ways with regard to things like hiring, performance reviews, etc. and there's a significant enough difference that the system could be defined as racist and sexist, even though no individual feels that they themselves are racist or sexist. I think the issue here is that the difference in treatment is only an issue for a subset of races and genders in certai…

> only an issue for a subset of races and genders in certain industries

Firstly there isn't one issue, there are many. Discussing them in aggregate isn't useful other than to highlight the extent of the problem.

Secondly, only some of the citations I gave in my previous post relate to fields percieved as male-dominated, the others are general.

What basis do you have for holding that opinion?

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#45
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you read the (sarcasm) at the end. I find it ironic that while you shower self-pity when it comes to the US but paint India black anyway. India infact has a lower crime rate against women than the US (even after accounting for differences in reporting rates). Delhi comes out being "safer" than D.C; South India is apparently much safer (author appears to be from Chennai?). I'm given to believe that thi…

> India infact has a lower crime rate against women than the > US (even after accounting for differences in reporting > rates). Does it include female foetuses aborted just because of the sex?

In what way should this be considered a crime? If a woman is being forced to abort, then that is a crime against her. But unless abortion itself is to be considered a crime (namely unless someone takes a stance somewhere on the pro-life side of the spectrum), how is selective consensual abortions a crime against anyone?

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> India infact has a lower crime rate against women than the > US (even after accounting for differences in reporting > rates). Does it include female foetuses aborted just because of the sex?

In what way should this be considered a crime? If a woman is being forced to abort, then that is a crime against her. But unless abortion itself is to be considered a crime (namely unless someone takes a stance somewhere on the pro-life side of the spectrum), how is selective consensual abortions a crime against anyone?

It's needed because some societies strongly select for male children. Women who give birth to daughters are murdered; those daughters are murdered; doctors are bribed to break laws about giving information about the sex of an unborn child; etc.

At some point a society has to pass a bunch of law to drive change, to signal that some things are no longer considered to be acceptable. They tried persuassion and it didn't work.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13264301

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would one account for differences in reporting rates? The book you cite seems completely unrelated to this claim. I.e., citation needed. Anecdotally, this seems insane to me. In 2 years in India I observed more violent eve teasing than in 30 years in the US. Just talking to women, you get wildly different stories in both places - in the US it's "someone unattractive asked me out and I felt uncomfortable , almost…

"whereas in India it's "meh, he just grabbed my ass and walked off, no biggie". Seriously that is only upper class and only happen in upper class places. Believe me if that happens in an area where middle class is there the guy who did that will get public merciless beating. Any of my know circles will surely slap the guy in the same place. I think in India domestic violence is the huge thing for girls. Still not eve…

I'm not sure how plausible I find this. The (admittedly self-serving) perception within Delhi is that most of the bad stuff happening there is done by villagers from Bihar and UP, not by native Delhiites.

Most of the big city cases that I've read about (e.g., Uber rape case, 2012 gang rape) do fit that perception. So it would surprise me if things were somehow better in Bihar than in Delhi.

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way should this be considered a crime? If a woman is being forced to abort, then that is a crime against her. But unless abortion itself is to be considered a crime (namely unless someone takes a stance somewhere on the pro-life side of the spectrum), how is selective consensual abortions a crime against anyone?

It's needed because some societies strongly select for male children. Women who give birth to daughters are murdered; those daughters are murdered; doctors are bribed to break laws about giving information about the sex of an unborn child; etc. At some point a society has to pass a bunch of law to drive change, to signal that some things are no longer considered to be acceptable. They tried persuassion and it didn't…

>Women who give birth to daughters are murdered; those daughters are murdered;

That would be your crimes against women. Not the abortions themselves.

>doctors are bribed to break laws about giving information about the sex of an unborn child

Doctors should give the patient full information to make an informed medical choice, including for an abortion. In this case, the law is the problem.

>At some point a society has to pass a bunch of law to drive change, to signal that some things are no longer considered to be acceptable. They tried persuassion and it didn't work.

Yet sex selective abortions aren't a problem in much of the world. In China's case, sex selective abortions are a result of the laws.

Change the culture so that people don't feel pressured into a choice. Change the laws so that forcing people to make a choice is illegal. But don't remove that choice.

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#49
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way should this be considered a crime? If a woman is being forced to abort, then that is a crime against her. But unless abortion itself is to be considered a crime (namely unless someone takes a stance somewhere on the pro-life side of the spectrum), how is selective consensual abortions a crime against anyone?

It's needed because some societies strongly select for male children. Women who give birth to daughters are murdered; those daughters are murdered; doctors are bribed to break laws about giving information about the sex of an unborn child; etc. At some point a society has to pass a bunch of law to drive change, to signal that some things are no longer considered to be acceptable. They tried persuassion and it didn't…

> doctors are bribed to break laws about giving information about the sex of an unborn child

I have written on HN several times about corruption in India, but this is one of the kinds of corruption I have never seen. I have several friends who have children, and come from families who would never abort a fetus based on its sex. But still, their family doctors, who have known them all their lives would not divulge this bit of information.

The article that you linked to reports instances, and I believe the personal stories to be true. However, when I reconcile my own experience with the stories in the article, I must conclude that it happens very rarely. So rarely that it cannot account for the large trends in the sex ratios. Getting a doctor to perform the abortion is easy though.

> They tried persuassion and it didn't work.

Indians are already getting choked with well-meaning but counterproductive laws. IMO, adding more laws wont help. They haven't tried general education. Among the poorer sectors of society, education seems to be as bad as it ever was. Don't go by India's published literacy figures; they are meaningless [1].

[1] http://gbytes.gsood.com/2006/07/03/literacy-in-india-can-ind...

Re: My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

#50
post #41
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance costs are taken from crime statistics and insurance claims. Nobody I know has insurance. the problem is that this data is completely off-radar. The Coventry people are incredibly insular and untrusting. The idea is that you are either alone, or with your community- if you're community rejects you because you don't like their kids putting rotting fish in your letter box (for example) then you're on your own.…

You keep saying that Coventry is riddled with crime, but you have nothing but feels to support you. It's not persuasive, especially in the face of reported police stats; of the British Crime Survey; of insirance prices; of house prices; of murder rates; there's nothing anywhere that supports your outlandish claim.

Which is my point entirely.

"Unreported crime" is "no crime" to you, the government or anyone else.

I -KNOW- this is reality, it's plainer to me than that water is wet and the fact that evidence doesn't exist for it is _precisely_ what I'm saying.

(and actually house prices are cheaper in Coventry than anywhere else in the west midlands)

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detail.html?country=... [Coventry, terraced, sold in the last year]

vs

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detail.html?country=... [Kenilworth, terraced, sold in last year]

lets add some "OPed" articles because stats aren't really worthy in this situation: http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/all-about/wood-end

The "isolation" of crime: (it's really not isolated, but more.. concentrated): http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/third-co...

Post reply on HN