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Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

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Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#61
post #38
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of Basic Income goes hand in hand with the process of automation. There are millions of jobs that will go away due to automation. The counter-argument to "will basic income lead more people to stop working" is not "people are working too hard anyway" but rather "most people won't have a job...coming soon". What are all those people going to do once this happens? Find another job? Yeah right. Here [1] is an a…

The question I want answered is what's to stop the people who own the automation technology/patents/natural resource rights from leaving the country so they don't have to pay the taxes for everyone's minimum income?

That would be interesting. They'd be considered foreigners, and it'd hopefully erode the social relation of "property rights" to capital the government grants them.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#62
If you'd told me ten years ago I would ever support a basic income, I would have laughed. My thought would have been, "People getting paid without doing anything? Absurd!" But, in the past few years I've thoroughly changed my mind on this, and a number of other fronts. I now fully support a basic income (though I think a debate needs to happen about how much that basic income ought to be and how it ought to be funded, I'm well past the point where I think we should be discussing whether it ought to happen).

Partly this has been because I did some traveling (a lot of traveling; fulltime for four years, in a motorhome). I spent a lot of time in places that aren't Silicon Valley or other thriving metropolis. Detroit, Slab City, New Orleans, a variety of rural places. There are people who have been completely pushed out of the legitimate economy or merely scrape by at the very bottom, for a variety of reasons. And, it's not a small number of people. It is huge swaths of the population (as much as 39%, based on the poverty line, but more or less, depending on how you define it). That's not sustainable, ethical, or efficient.

The CEO to worker pay gap has also contributed to my changing view on this. When a full-time (or part-time who holds another job) Walmart worker doesn't earn enough to rent a tiny apartment and pay for basic expenses, while the CEO makes orders of magnitude more, it becomes apparent there needs to be other ways to push the income down. If corporations won't behave ethically by choice, there needs to be outside pressure. Increasing efficiency and increasing revenue has not resulted in improved quality of life for workers; and that is mostly reflected across the board. It is not merely egregious examples like Walmart. Even many "good" companies have horrible pay gaps and little loyalty to their employees (while expecting loyalty and dedication in return).

And, that doesn't really even begin to address the changing nature of work. Many skilled work roles, those jobs that the American middle class was built on, have disappeared from the US economy in my lifetime, and this hasn't been reflected in a subsequent increase in pay or benefits for lower-skilled labor jobs that replaced them (and some of those jobs were not replaced...they just don't exist anymore). All while real estate prices and rents have gone through the roof. So, again, large swaths of the population, the kind of people who could have been middle class home owners in previous generations with reasonable retirement savings, are now renters who live paycheck to paycheck, or worse, live on credit. There's certainly room to talk about why the real estate market is as lopsided as it is. And, there may be room to talk about increasing skills in people who currently work low-skill jobs (though, evidence indicates there are many categories of job that are simply not going to exist in the future). Again, it's not sustainable, ethical, or efficient to have so many people living in poverty.

Finally, we already spend a couple trillion dollars on welfare programs. The increased cost for extending that type of benefit to everyone, while removing the bureaucracy of maintaining the existing programs (eligibility compliance and case workers, etc.), is actually not as dramatic as it first seems.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#63
Oh well, looking at history and drawing parallels from the 19th century, we will probably get something like a basic income, or perhaps a massive police state. Either way, something will have to change. At least assuming that satisfaction with current administration and economy is not going to increase.

It is good that we start to discuss such ideas.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#64
I like the idea of a basic income on principle, and this article has some great arguments for it. (Though I agree it is far from being paid for--and a land tax essentially means it only gets paid to the landless, so you'd need to exempt "reasonable" owner-occupied land).

But let's simulate how it would look in the real world. I think mindless consumerism would go way up, especially in the lower classes. Advertising in all media would simply encourage this. The well-off would buy stock in Walmart and low end electronics makers with their extra income, thus capturing the income of the less savvy. Without local manufacturing, much of the distributed income would go to China. Paternalism and its religious affiliates would rise up again to capture the income of the not-yet-emancipated (by that I mean women and children). With perceived abundance and linear income, the birth rate would rise.

So I think we need to solve some of these issues first. Education should be the beneficiary for the first trillion in new taxes. Hopefully that could mitigate the consumerism and prompt more entrepreneurialism, as well as reduce the paternalism and birth rate. As mentioned, doing universal health care right would amount to the same thing as a universal income as well (more security, less worry, more productivity). So I wonder if those two aren't bigger priorities.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#65
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see all the arguments for it, but I always find this to be the argument against it which I believe would be the issue myself. If one had basic income why would they need to work? The incentives favour against the need to work. That income could be saved up and used in countries where the PPP value is much higher. Or just live and not work (which would decrease tax revenues forth). If people started to work less the…

> If one had basic income why would they need to work? Because people want more than $12k/year can buy? Many people here do contract work, how many of them stop once they've earned $12k/year? Did you read the article? There is a section on this. You may disagree with the analysis, but we should really start from what's actually being argued.

I read the article and the reddit posts and follow /r/basicincome.

I see how it can help someone this year and next year but I clearly see this vicious cycle it can create over a decade where things get much worse and probably actual poverty instead.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#66
The appeal to UBI for me has always, apart from being a good way to stop welfare traps and increase income equality now, is that it marks the beginning of the new phase in our economic system: one from a cash-work model to a material-existence model. I do subscribe to the total job automation theory being every so increasingly talked about, and what these proposals tell me is that government and to a larger extent society is beginning to see that we can indeed provide for everyone using our productivity gains. The cash part of the deal I think is just a carry-on from our ageing economic system that will be replaced by some other form of value transfer mechanism which honestly, I can't imagine what would look like.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#67
post #37

I think if you could see close-up how these systems work now, you'd be convinced that it's completely not worth the vast cost (in time, energy, money) to try and figure out who "deserves" each of the many, many special benefits/allowances/exemptions available (plus it's incredibly difficult for potential recipients to figure out what they're eligible for, plus it imposes those costs on the people who aren't eligible,…

In addition, every rule to catch the "undeserving" will catch some people who really do need the help and who you were trying to help in the first place.

> So since this is HN... is there any way to get to an MVP without having a sovereign state to experiment with? Or is this solely in the realm of public policy?

Possibly a daft idea, but what if a company paid by the hour worked (or some other measure of work produced), but had a minimum that was always paid even if you didn't work.

Rules:

1. Nobody gets fired for not working.

2. You can get fired if you attack / something else normally fireable not related to your work itself.

3. No other jobs on the side? Less sure about that one. Could be interesting to support people trying something new but with the ability to do work on the side for you or come back. Paradoxically, I think that knowing you can leave but come back reduces the chance you'll leave forever. Quite a few careers allow sabbaticals of a year for this reason.

Sort of similar to:

1. Everyone gets BI

2. You don't get it if you're in prison

3. You can't go and live in another country and still receive it

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to pretend to know the complexities of this type of issue, so don't infer too much from my following comment.. With that said, specifically replying to your comment: I would work, because the income levels i've seen in this thread ($1k/m) would barely be enough to live on. Hell, my existing debt alone (car), and current housing cost, keep me working. The idea of having to sell nearly everything to survi…

I would like basic income too! It is awesome I'd have more money in my pocket. $1000 a month is lots of money to live off elsewhere. It's easy to save by living a bit shabbily for a while. Not everyone will see it that way they should work more. I'm content with very little. I don't want to be homeless or stuck when I'm sick. But I also don't want to be living in poverty in 20-30 years time which is potentially a big…

I'd probably use it to work on personal projects for 12 months at a time after doing consulting rounds.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#69
post #8

I always found the idea interesting, at the condition that we suppress all other forms of benefits. It is a simple and elegant way to solve the welfare trap and it also would be easier and cheaper to manage than the layers of benefits from various gvt agencies. To me there are only two real risks. First the idea that this will lead more people to stop working instead of less, which would be counterproductive. And I f…

I also found the idea very interesting, but I don't necessarily agree with all the risks you have identified.

- "at the condition that we suppress all other forms of benefits": mostly agree, except for benefits related to disabilities. I would still make a distinction between people who are able to work, and people who not only cannot work but need help (sometimes costly help) just to stay alive, and everything in-between.

- "this will lead more people to stop working": could be, or it could be the opposite, but it's hard to know without experimenting. Single mothers or fathers working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet would probably keep at most one and spend more time with their kid(s). Students would probably just focus on their studies. But on the other hand unemployment benefits and related schemes are so badly designed (in general) that for lots of people currently collecting welfare, working would result either in the same purchasing power, or more likely a net decrease in purchasing power. I don't know the situation in US, but it certainly is like that in France. Unconditional Basic Income means every dollar earned on the job is a dollar (minus x% of taxes) extra spendable income. I believe money to be a better source of motivation than some vague sense of duty.

- "mass immigration": there are already societies living on nearly unconditional basic income, where the only condition is to have the right citizenship -> Qatar, etc. The result is not great for the poor immigrants doing the actual work. This is the IMHO the biggest issue with Unconditional Basic Income: how to make it work when getting it will never be quite that universal, but depends on which side of the border and/or citizenship you're standing?

EDIT: typo

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#70
post #37

I think if you could see close-up how these systems work now, you'd be convinced that it's completely not worth the vast cost (in time, energy, money) to try and figure out who "deserves" each of the many, many special benefits/allowances/exemptions available (plus it's incredibly difficult for potential recipients to figure out what they're eligible for, plus it imposes those costs on the people who aren't eligible,…

There's been a few aid projects towards impoverished villages in Africa that have a BI setup. There's also Alaska and some other natural resource based payments.

In general I think BI is the social safety net equivalent of Greenspun's Tenth Rule:

Any sufficiently complicated social welfare program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Basic Income.

So getting there may be a case of slowly making existing benefits more universal, more cash based etc. I think one suggestion was to just keep lowering the retirement age as BI and state pensions are roughly analogous.

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