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Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

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Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#31

Post by Simp »

hurin wrote: post #21
cm2187 wrote: post #8

I always found the idea interesting, at the condition that we suppress all other forms of benefits. It is a simple and elegant way to solve the welfare trap and it also would be easier and cheaper to manage than the layers of benefits from various gvt agencies. To me there are only two real risks. First the idea that this will lead more people to stop working instead of less, which would be counterproductive. And I f…

You couldn't actually not work in former socialist countries though. At least in the Soviet Union this was actively persecuted. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism_%28social_offense%2... ) But I do think think that countries which offer a great deal of socialized benefits (such as Finland, Sweden etc.) have a significant problem with a unemployment in the youngest generation of the labor force.

>(such as Finland, Norway, Sweden etc.)

Norway has an unemployment rate of 3.9%... that's lower than the US (much lower if you use U6 as a metric) or UK. In fact, it's one of the lowest in the world.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployme...

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#32

Post by lloydsparkes »

I'm generally a fan of this idea, as long as its implemented correctly.

At the moment lots of western countries, spend billions on welfare entitlement, and billions more administering a complex system, so that politicans can change particular benefits to win votes from certian groups of voters.

Under this system, all benefits are replaced with a single, universal level, so politicans can give rises either to everyone, or no one. (The only additional benefits should be for those with serve disabilities).

You also lose the withdrawal issues of going from out of work, to in work, you can get rid of things like minimum wages, as their not needed any more, and you can support a more flexible labour market.

Politicans cannot fight over, how particular benefits can change, say increase pensions, but cut unemployment.

If you also merge this into the tax system, with a flat tax as a negative income tax, it is even more efficient.

And eventually you also get what alot of people on the right want - a smaller, more efficient goverment, while doing what alot of people on the left want.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#33

Post by baddox »

c22 wrote: post #18
akhatri_aus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see all the arguments for it, but I always find this to be the argument against it which I believe would be the issue myself. If one had basic income why would they need to work? The incentives favour against the need to work. That income could be saved up and used in countries where the PPP value is much higher. Or just live and not work (which would decrease tax revenues forth). If people started to work less the…

Why do people work at non entry-level jobs now?

Because they are much more enjoyable jobs and because they pay more.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#34

Post by junto »

vlasev wrote: post #25
cm2187 wrote: post #8

I always found the idea interesting, at the condition that we suppress all other forms of benefits. It is a simple and elegant way to solve the welfare trap and it also would be easier and cheaper to manage than the layers of benefits from various gvt agencies. To me there are only two real risks. First the idea that this will lead more people to stop working instead of less, which would be counterproductive. And I f…

The idea of Basic Income goes hand in hand with the process of automation. There are millions of jobs that will go away due to automation. The counter-argument to "will basic income lead more people to stop working" is not "people are working too hard anyway" but rather "most people won't have a job...coming soon". What are all those people going to do once this happens? Find another job? Yeah right. Here [1] is an a…

  What's to stop a nation implementing BI from capping the 
  number of immigrants it admits?
Such an action is pretty difficult in say the EU on a country basis. European residents (currently) have a right to live and work where ever they want in the EU. Countries can't block that without major changes to Tue EU rules.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#35

Post by hurin »

Simp wrote: post #31
hurin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You couldn't actually not work in former socialist countries though. At least in the Soviet Union this was actively persecuted. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism_%28social_offense%2... ) But I do think think that countries which offer a great deal of socialized benefits (such as Finland, Sweden etc.) have a significant problem with a unemployment in the youngest generation of the labor force.

>(such as Finland, Norway, Sweden etc.) Norway has an unemployment rate of 3.9%... that's lower than the US (much lower if you use U6 as a metric) or UK. In fact, it's one of the lowest in the world. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployme...

Yes, it appears I was wrong lumping Norway into there, http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?queryid=36499.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#36

Post by nightski »

IanCal wrote: post #14
[deleted] wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I don't think we can claim that distributing money amongst people would definitely decrease spending on goods and services.

GDP is value added. If there are less people working, I'd hope that value added would go down.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#37

Post by kalvin »

I think if you could see close-up how these systems work now, you'd be convinced that it's completely not worth the vast cost (in time, energy, money) to try and figure out who "deserves" each of the many, many special benefits/allowances/exemptions available (plus it's incredibly difficult for potential recipients to figure out what they're eligible for, plus it imposes those costs on the people who aren't eligible, but end up having to jump through all the same hoops.)

Based on my experience in the last year working on healthcare.gov etc., I think it's become increasingly clear that the implementation of well-meaning policies intended to separate the deserving from the undeserving ends up adding an incredible amount of complexity and overhead, along with unintentional side effects, edge cases, and bad incentives.

That said, there's no way politically a basic income is going to fly in the US anytime soon. So since this is HN... is there any way to get to an MVP without having a sovereign state to experiment with? Or is this solely in the realm of public policy?

(I asked this a while back on another BI thread, trying again)

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#38

Post by codexon »

vlasev wrote: post #25
cm2187 wrote: post #8

I always found the idea interesting, at the condition that we suppress all other forms of benefits. It is a simple and elegant way to solve the welfare trap and it also would be easier and cheaper to manage than the layers of benefits from various gvt agencies. To me there are only two real risks. First the idea that this will lead more people to stop working instead of less, which would be counterproductive. And I f…

The idea of Basic Income goes hand in hand with the process of automation. There are millions of jobs that will go away due to automation. The counter-argument to "will basic income lead more people to stop working" is not "people are working too hard anyway" but rather "most people won't have a job...coming soon". What are all those people going to do once this happens? Find another job? Yeah right. Here [1] is an a…

The question I want answered is what's to stop the people who own the automation technology/patents/natural resource rights from leaving the country so they don't have to pay the taxes for everyone's minimum income?

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#39

Post by bayesianhorse »

One reason why I am currently not so much in favor of UBI is immigration. I have three uncommon beliefs about immigration:

First, I don't believe the idea of human rights allows a state to tell people where they are allowed or forbidden to live.

Secondly, I don't believe immigration controls are ultimately feasible. In the US this is obvious in the big population of illegal immigrants, other countries are also discovering that they can't really stop people from entering and that hunting down and deporting hundreds of thousands of people is harder than it looks.

Thirdly, I don't believe a society can save money by withholding social welfare to someone who lives among them. The cost in health care, crime, and lost potential may very well outpace the savings.

I also believe a UBI would force countries to try and tighten their immigration controls. The problem is not so much that the immigrants wouldn't ultimately benefit that society, but the upfront payments and increased financial risks are just scary as hell.

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