He is called "Snow-dumb" around here. Exiled for life with the possibility of assassination for saying what everyone knew what was happening.
Where is "around here"?
Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
111–120 of 178 posts
Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
Crimea debacle? You should go read GlobalResearch.ca, CounterPunch.org, WSWS.org ETC – non-MSM news outlets to get the other side of the picture. Crimea is a very strategic area to get hold of which NATO wants to break into Russia through color revolutions ETC just because Putin refused to be US dog. When Ukraine democratic government was forcefully overthrown by a US-backed Nazi military coup what choice Russia had?…
> When Ukraine democratic government was forcefully overthrown by a US-backed Nazi military coup what choice Russia had? Wait, wait, wait. When did this happen? Because I think I might've missed something.
Read this: The Truth Behind The Crisis in Ukraine.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-truth-behind-the-crisis-in-...
Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding governmen…
The possible precedent of not punishing leakers is far preferable to the actual precedent of giving the government a way to shield all of its wrongdoings.
I understand this sentiment, but I doubt you'd continue to hold it in the event of a leak that was much less beneficial for you in particular.
Consider for a moment the fictional scenario that all US tax documents were leaked, or perhaps only the tax documents of folks whose names started with Warren B. We might (in this fictional scenario) find out about some very significant tax evasion on the part of Warren Buffet (just a hypothetical example, almost certainly not true), but how might Warren Beaufort feel?
To provide another (completely fictional) example, what about if the medical information of all federal US employees gets leaked. The US public is shocked to discover the huge misappropriations of funds towards unnecessary procedures for US congressmen/women, but at the same time Joe Normal, who works for a middle school, loses his job because it's revealed he has AIDS and the parents petition his removal from the classroom.
I don't want to give these folks who might have access to this data any hope of exoneration or leniency if they use their privileged position to reveal secrets.
Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding governmen…
I don't think anybody here is advocating for thoughtlessly dumping all state secrets in the open. The thing is, when given the power to eavesdrop into anyone's life without consequences, it takes a rather uncommon kind of person to do what Snowden did in order to make the public aware of what is going on. Because the most common behaviour when receiving that power would be to exploit and abuse it, regardless of wheth…
> I don't think anybody here is advocating for thoughtlessly dumping all state secrets in the open.
I am. Why should a state have secrets? Rulers ought to be in power under the consent of the ruled. If the ruled don't even know what the rulers are doing, how can we be giving them consent for something we don't know about?
Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because Snowden told the public what they're own government is doing - things they shouldn't be doing. Operations that people would have considered Orwellian a decade or two ago. Things they've blatantly lied about [1]. Another user in this thread, jordigh, covers why this has been important in the past. [1] http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about...
You're not really addressing what I wrote -- specifically, the general precedent of allowing state secrets to be leaked without severe punishment seems harmful to any nation state. It makes sense to me that the default reaction to the release of state secrets is that of disapproval. From there, we can of course move further away from acceptance or closer to it depending on the specific scenario, but most folks aren't…
> specifically, the general precedent of allowing state secrets to be leaked without severe punishment seems harmful to any nation state.
And is it also harmful to the citizens of that nation state?
What are our rulers doing that they don't want us to know about? Why should we not know everything that they are doing?
Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
>was forcefully overthrown by a US-backed Nazi military coup The ignorance here is mindblowing. Russians live in a perpetual conspiracy theory it seems. Autocratic states are known for their information control and propaganda it seems even when historically controlled media has been highly inaccurate, yet somehow the populace keeps buying into statements from state controlled media. I guess the state knows how to del…
I'm not Russian, I just don't buy into MSM propaganda. Let me give you simple fact which you can search for. during dissolution of USSR, it was agreed between West and Russia that NATO wouldn't expand into Eastern Europe but look at now, NATO is in most of Easten Europe and with Ukraine under control, it comes right on Russia's border. You say autocratic, what democratic government example you can give me in the worl…
>I'm not Russian
Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
> sensationalizing the issues in order to milk these documents for as long as possible That's the only way to fight politicians who know how the news-cycle work: just sit tight for a couple of weeks and anything will be forgotten. By "refreshing" every few months, they kept the issue on the agenda. Recent legislative wins in this area are almost entirely due to this strategy: in the first month after release, there w…
> We really don't know how "legitimate" those descriptions of people hacking equipment in transit were. That's actually a perfect example of what I was talking about. When Greenwald initially published the short blurb talking about intercepting routers, he didn't say who they were being used against, implying that anyone's router might be intercepted and backdoored - maybe even your own! When the full document was re…
But it's only you presuming a limitation on the NSA's actions with no basis for making that assumption. The fact that certain documents X have come out showing that Y happened in place Z does not mean that Y isn't happening elsewhere as well.
Indeed, the document you link to says "our targets throughout the world". Your characterization of the program/document as "only used for hard targets in Syria" is just an outright lie.
Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're not really addressing what I wrote -- specifically, the general precedent of allowing state secrets to be leaked without severe punishment seems harmful to any nation state. It makes sense to me that the default reaction to the release of state secrets is that of disapproval. From there, we can of course move further away from acceptance or closer to it depending on the specific scenario, but most folks aren't…
> specifically, the general precedent of allowing state secrets to be leaked without severe punishment seems harmful to any nation state. And is it also harmful to the citizens of that nation state? What are our rulers doing that they don't want us to know about? Why should we not know everything that they are doing?
There's no way to notify your population of an action without also notifying your enemies of that action. No argument exists, to my knowledge, that a nation-state can be successful without hiding some information from other nation-states, and therefore from its people, given my first sentence.
It's one reason we elect representatives, in fact.
Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. You should expect that comments made on political topics are going to get downvoted by people who strongly disagree with you. But moderating your tone and angle of attack on such topics can go a long way towards avoiding them and can even get people who disagree with you to upvote you. Complaining about downvotes is only going to earn you more of them.
Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. No. It isn't. How would you feel if people shut you out of a discussion because they disagreed with you? If someone says something you disagree with, debate them. If they say something factually incorrect, correct them. They may even thank you for it. And guess what, they may end up changing your mind, or correcting a mistake on your part. Actively seek…
I get downvoted all the time, I do not feel as if the downvoters have shut me out of a discussion. I continue to post in the same threads, and usually I get more upvotes than downvotes. Over time the downvoted comments typically get upvoted to 0 or 1 or so.
Downvotes are nothing more than another kind of participation in the discussion and should be treated as such.
Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
I tend to dislike the hero/villain dichotomy that is usually held up. I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically, and I think the manner in which he is releasing the documents has elements of narcissism and carelessness in regards to the sensitivity of the information. That being said, Snowden probably would not have absconded with this massive trove of information if the US gove…
> I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically, and I think the manner in which he is releasing the documents has elements of narcissism and carelessness in regards to the sensitivity of the information. Could you expand on why you think this? From my perspective, what's caused tremendous damage is the way U.S. agencies have acted. I'd like these policies to at minimum be up for a…
Absolutely. Ill clarify here and state that I think what the US government was doing was wrong, and that by uncovering the illegal (in my mind, though there is some debate about this point) activities of our spy agencies the world is better off. Of course, leaking the information could not have happened if the original programs had never existed, but the leaks were the proximate cause for the damage to the U.S. geopolitically.
However, that doesn't negate the fact that by having their dirty laundry aired the U.S. has gotten a tarnished reputation. Its given ammunition to anti-US groups, lent legitimacy to other state actors acting poorly when it comes to cyber-intelligence/warfare, and damaged the economic interests of U.S. tech companies trying to have a presence internationally. I will leave it up to you to pass your own judgement as to whether this damage to the U.S. was appropriate/justified/legitimate/deserved, but I think we can agree that it has happened.
Now, to expand on my comment that there are elements of carelessness and narcissism. I think - and this is just my opinion - that Snowden has demonstrated an enjoyment of the limelight, and has started to model himself as a digital champion. I don't say this to condemn him, merely to point out that he is a human who has an ego, and isnt so selfless angel. Second, the carelessness that I refer to is things I have heard regarding failures in redacting information[1]. This doesn't necessarily mean that such failures aren't a cost that is negated by the public gain of knowing about these surveillance programs, but it is still a cost that must be recognized.
[1]https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140128/08542126021/new-y...