Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance • Hacker News Board

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#91

Post by pluma » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:05 PM UTC

csandreasen wrote: post #29

pluma wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He only had to take asylum in Russia because the US revoked his passport and prevented him from going anywhere else. Russia was never intended to be more than a stop-gap. Considering how disgustingly subservient all of Europe has been to bend over backwards to the US (e.g. forcing the landing of a presidential plane because someone suspected it was carrying Snowden) you can't really blame him. Russia is the only coun…

This is a myth that keeps getting repeated. The US government didn't revoke his passport leaving him stranded in Russia, they revoked his passport the day before he left Hong Kong [1]. He traveled to Russia on what turned out to be an invalid travel document issued by the Ecuadorian embassy in London [2] (same one that Julian Assange is holed up in). [1] http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-nsa-leaker-snowdens...…

Thanks for clarifying. Still leaves him stranded in Russia if the Ecuadorian document wasn't enough to get on the connect flight to wherever.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#92

Post by atom-morgan » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:13 PM UTC

dimino wrote: post #78

atom-morgan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. That logic should scare the living hell out of people.

Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding governmen…

Because Snowden told the public what they're own government is doing - things they shouldn't be doing. Operations that people would have considered Orwellian a decade or two ago. Things they've blatantly lied about [1]. Another user in this thread, jordigh, covers why this has been important in the past.

[1] http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about...

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#93

Post by gonvaled » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

dkns wrote: post #64

kr4 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crimea debacle? You should go read GlobalResearch.ca, CounterPunch.org, WSWS.org ETC – non-MSM news outlets to get the other side of the picture. Crimea is a very strategic area to get hold of which NATO wants to break into Russia through color revolutions ETC just because Putin refused to be US dog. When Ukraine democratic government was forcefully overthrown by a US-backed Nazi military coup what choice Russia had?…

> When Ukraine democratic government was forcefully overthrown by a US-backed Nazi military coup what choice Russia had? Wait, wait, wait. When did this happen? Because I think I might've missed something.

I think he is referring to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych

Yanukovych was democratically elected and overthrown by popular protests (backed by the EU / US?).

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#94

Post by spacehome » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:21 PM UTC

olefoo wrote: post #2

We'll know the American government has truly gone sour if an earnest attempt on his life is traced to the "Intelligence Community". Until then, he is our beloved revolutionary sweetheart telepresent in our thoughts.

Who are you kidding? The intelligence community has been rotten for at least decades.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#95

Post by sopooneo » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:21 PM UTC

karmacondon wrote: post #42

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

Edward Snowden seems like a good guy, but what he did was wrong. Betrayal and theft should not be condoned under any circumstances. He made the wrong choices and should be held accountable for them in a court of law. If someone I trusted unilaterally decided that I was breaking the law and then used that as a justification to steal documents from me and give them to journalists, I would be very upset. That's just wro…

Theft of the King's tea?

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#96

Post by dimino » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:25 PM UTC

atom-morgan wrote: post #92

dimino wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding governmen…

Because Snowden told the public what they're own government is doing - things they shouldn't be doing. Operations that people would have considered Orwellian a decade or two ago. Things they've blatantly lied about [1]. Another user in this thread, jordigh, covers why this has been important in the past. [1] http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about...

You're not really addressing what I wrote -- specifically, the general precedent of allowing state secrets to be leaked without severe punishment seems harmful to any nation state.

It makes sense to me that the default reaction to the release of state secrets is that of disapproval. From there, we can of course move further away from acceptance or closer to it depending on the specific scenario, but most folks aren't taking a close look at Snowden -- I'd even argue that they probably don't need to. What matters here is the info he released, not really Snowden specifically.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#97

Post by felipeerias » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:26 PM UTC

dimino wrote: post #78

atom-morgan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. That logic should scare the living hell out of people.

Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding governmen…

I don't think anybody here is advocating for thoughtlessly dumping all state secrets in the open.

The thing is, when given the power to eavesdrop into anyone's life without consequences, it takes a rather uncommon kind of person to do what Snowden did in order to make the public aware of what is going on.

Because the most common behaviour when receiving that power would be to exploit and abuse it, regardless of whether we are talking about an individual, an institution, or a whole government.

So I am not worried about Snowden, I'm worried about the thousands of his ex-colleagues who are still sitting on their desks every day.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#98

Post by spacehome » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:29 PM UTC

treetoppin wrote: post #50

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

I tend to dislike the hero/villain dichotomy that is usually held up. I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically, and I think the manner in which he is releasing the documents has elements of narcissism and carelessness in regards to the sensitivity of the information. That being said, Snowden probably would not have absconded with this massive trove of information if the US gove…

> I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically, and I think the manner in which he is releasing the documents has elements of narcissism and carelessness in regards to the sensitivity of the information.

Could you expand on why you think this? From my perspective, what's caused tremendous damage is the way U.S. agencies have acted. I'd like these policies to at minimum be up for a vote, but we can't vote on something if we have no idea what's being done.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#99

Post by Lawtonfogle » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:30 PM UTC

treetoppin wrote: post #50

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

I tend to dislike the hero/villain dichotomy that is usually held up. I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically, and I think the manner in which he is releasing the documents has elements of narcissism and carelessness in regards to the sensitivity of the information. That being said, Snowden probably would not have absconded with this massive trove of information if the US gove…

>I tend to dislike the hero/villain dichotomy that is usually held up. I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically

If I report someone for a crime and they are arrested, is the damage to their life my fault or their own?

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#100

Post by eatbuckyballs » Wed, May 20, 2015, 2:31 PM UTC

diyorgasms wrote: post #80

toxican wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess this is kind of where I'm at with him. Although I don't really think he's a "bad guy". What he did was treason and it was "wrong", but I think in this case the ends justify the means. What he exposed was far worse than how he did it.

You do realize that the crime of treason is codified in the United States Constitution, and that what Snowden did in no way meets the criteria enumerated there. Careful throwing the word "treason" around like that, it can make you appear ignorant.

It's likely he'll see the charges of "Aiding the Enemy", "Illegal disclosure of Classified Information", and "Unauthorized removal and retention of Classified information". That said, Treason isn't as hard to apply as people are making it out to be.

“If you think that one, Al Qaeda and similar groups are the enemy for purposes of treason; two, his actions assisted them in operations against the U.S.; and three, that was his intention,” Harrison said, “then the argument that it was treason is pretty good.” - John Harrison UVA LAW specializing in constitutional law and history.