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Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

nytimes.com

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Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#101

Post by spacehome »

derf_ wrote: post #89
dimino wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in D…

Would this be the same population polled in 2010 when 41% of them could not name the vice president of the United States in an open-ended (not multiple choice) question? [0] Or last September when 64% of them could not name the three branches of government? [1] (35% could not name a single one) My favorite poll is this one: http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/03/16/americans-privacy-stra... Buried near the bottom is, "60…

Eh, to be fair, the vice president has very little power and doesn't seem to be of any great consequence.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#102

Post by Lawtonfogle »

dimino wrote: post #78
atom-morgan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. That logic should scare the living hell out of people.

Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding governmen…

The possible precedent of not punishing leakers is far preferable to the actual precedent of giving the government a way to shield all of its wrongdoings.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#103

Post by Lawtonfogle »

toxican wrote: post #51
dimino wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in D…

I guess this is kind of where I'm at with him. Although I don't really think he's a "bad guy". What he did was treason and it was "wrong", but I think in this case the ends justify the means. What he exposed was far worse than how he did it.

People are celebrated for treason. Like George Washington.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#104

Post by dimino »

derf_ wrote: post #89
dimino wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in D…

Would this be the same population polled in 2010 when 41% of them could not name the vice president of the United States in an open-ended (not multiple choice) question? [0] Or last September when 64% of them could not name the three branches of government? [1] (35% could not name a single one) My favorite poll is this one: http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/03/16/americans-privacy-stra... Buried near the bottom is, "60…

Hah, I don't think anyone would disagree with you if your thesis here is "most people are generally uninformed".

That being said, technically speaking yes, it probably was a different set of people polled, just considering how the nature of polling works!

What you're not understanding though is that people actually seem to separate the content of the leak with the act of the leak. All it takes is a quick Google of "NSA spying program polling" to see polls affirming that hypothesis (folks disapprove of Snowden, but also heavily disapprove of the NSA spying program).

Snowden himself has been known to beg folks during his interviews to stop caring about him or what he did, and focus on the content of the information he released, and I'd agree. So what if folks don't like Snowden?

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#105

Post by Lawtonfogle »

karmacondon wrote: post #42
jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

Edward Snowden seems like a good guy, but what he did was wrong. Betrayal and theft should not be condoned under any circumstances. He made the wrong choices and should be held accountable for them in a court of law. If someone I trusted unilaterally decided that I was breaking the law and then used that as a justification to steal documents from me and give them to journalists, I would be very upset. That's just wro…

>but what he did was wrong.

It was illegal. Illegal and wrong are often at ends.

>Betrayal and theft should not be condoned under any circumstances.

Theft to survive? A child betraying an adult's trust by reporting abuse?

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#106

Post by random28345 »

treetoppin wrote: post #50
jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

I tend to dislike the hero/villain dichotomy that is usually held up. I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically, and I think the manner in which he is releasing the documents has elements of narcissism and carelessness in regards to the sensitivity of the information. That being said, Snowden probably would not have absconded with this massive trove of information if the US gove…

> I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically

I also think these MRIs that show the spead of cancer have done tremendous damage to the body medically.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#107

Post by eatbuckyballs »

Ao7bei3s wrote: post #88
karmacondon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edward Snowden seems like a good guy, but what he did was wrong. Betrayal and theft should not be condoned under any circumstances. He made the wrong choices and should be held accountable for them in a court of law. If someone I trusted unilaterally decided that I was breaking the law and then used that as a justification to steal documents from me and give them to journalists, I would be very upset. That's just wro…

> for the good of all of us Except for us who are not US americans. Whose rights the US routinely tramples. Snowden is a hero. > If a jury of Edward Snowden's peers are so taken by his celebrity and upstanding moral character that they find him not guilty Like he'd get a fair trial.

US law only applies to US Citizens, while I understand your sentiment it's written that way for a reason. EU Law loosely allows for all persons regardless of country protection with the same laws of the EU.

Frustrated or not, Protecting their country and their countries assets is. If you don't think this is going on around the globe then you're not looking for answers. The fact that there were checks and balances (some that may not have worked) is still way more than the rest of the world. For example the russian SORM system flat out forces a 1:1 copy of all internet traffic to the FSB. Meta data at gateways vs full capture, where's the uproar on behalf of the Russian citizens? Not to mention russian provides internet access / connectivity for many African, middle eastern, and even eastern european companies (direct and through proxy organizations) all subject to the same SORM rulings.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#108

Post by irishcoffee »

pyre wrote: post #53
Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain? I see him as neither hero nor villain. He has undertaken certain actions, such as leaking the NSA's illegal warrantless surveillance of Americans, that took a lot of courage and may result in positive changes if we really make use of what was leaked. For this he should be commended. He sacrificed his life in the US for this. Let's do what we can to mak…

> For instance, leaking how the US is spying on foreign nations, which is the whole reason for the NSA to exist. True, but this also paints the US leaders as hypocrites. Snowden showed that the NSA was hacking Chinese computers at a time when the US was loudly proclaiming innocence while denouncing "Chinese hacking."

Of course the US denies that. China denies they do it to the US, but they "hack" the US every single day. China has to deny it as well. Admitting hacking could be seen as an act of war. Use your brain.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#109

Post by kr4 »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #85
kr4 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crimea debacle? You should go read GlobalResearch.ca, CounterPunch.org, WSWS.org ETC – non-MSM news outlets to get the other side of the picture. Crimea is a very strategic area to get hold of which NATO wants to break into Russia through color revolutions ETC just because Putin refused to be US dog. When Ukraine democratic government was forcefully overthrown by a US-backed Nazi military coup what choice Russia had?…

>was forcefully overthrown by a US-backed Nazi military coup The ignorance here is mindblowing. Russians live in a perpetual conspiracy theory it seems. Autocratic states are known for their information control and propaganda it seems even when historically controlled media has been highly inaccurate, yet somehow the populace keeps buying into statements from state controlled media. I guess the state knows how to del…

I'm not Russian, I just don't buy into MSM propaganda. Let me give you simple fact which you can search for. during dissolution of USSR, it was agreed between West and Russia that NATO wouldn't expand into Eastern Europe but look at now, NATO is in most of Easten Europe and with Ukraine under control, it comes right on Russia's border. You say autocratic, what democratic government example you can give me in the world. Don't say US, it's just oligarchy bipartisan system where only those who comply with the elite interests reach at the helm and by chance if a true patriotic reaches there and wants to assert US people's true interests, he'd be brutely killed as it was with JFK [0].

0]: http://www.globalresearch.ca/jfk-and-the-unspeakable-why-he-...

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