Baloney. What we have is a culture that has largely undermined the concept of constructive and well structured argument. One should read the exchanges between friendimies GK Chesterton and George Bernard Shaw. They respected each other and were friendly but if you read their output about each other they would be fired today. Why? We are pansies. We assume, wrongly, that argument about ideas and even light jabs at the…
> Some ideas deserve to die and you only discover that through _vigorous_ debate. Patently false.
Be Kind
201–210 of 401 posts
Re: Be Kind
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, totally this. Moreover, I'd like to add anonymously down-voting / reporting someone's opinion just because it's not yours is just as mean-spirited as calling someone names. Every internet message board has its own culture with its own take on what's "right" and what's "wrong", and on HN (and reddit) the institutionally accepted way of being mean is misusing the downvoting / flagkilling system to attempt to bleep…
well said I basically stopped commenting (well, except now -- doh) here on HN because of how frequently I saw toxic responses and punishment down-voting. There are a noisy subset of users here who either (a) can't understand or respect generalizations, especially based on older/real-life experience, or (b) demand "proof" for any claim, or (c) will punish any kind of not-narrowly-PC statement. And then the blatantly r…
Nit-picking and pedantry is toxic in real life and on message boards, however it seems to be ever-present in communication with fellow software engineers. In software engineering, if you miss an = sign or misplace a { or use a single wrong keyword in a 100K line program, the program can fail spectacularly. Debugging a broken program often involves nit-picking syntax--it's an essential tool in a software engineer's arsenal.
This is not universally true for written argument or rhetoric. Being clear is good. Using correct grammar is good. The details count. But attacking a clear, articulate argument by nit-picking grammar or word usage is pointless and does not substantially add to the conversation. Despite this, this behavior seems to exist as a cancer everywhere on the Internet where you encounter written argument or persuasion, including here.
Re: Be Kind
#2031. Stress & Results. Sometimes being kind can get in the way, and directly lead to a loss of results or respect from others. You wouldn't be kind to someone trying to convince you not to run out of a burning building. As the author says "when I'm under stress.."
"Because a lot of his value, when you’re making giant decisions for huge amounts of money, is saying, ‘Why aren’t you f-ing considering this and this and this?’" - Ben Horowitz on his A16Z partner from "Tomorrow’s Advance Man" in The New Yorker.
There are times when we weight effectiveness above feelings when we think about impacting others, so where's the right line? What if one person's stress threshold is higher than another's? What if one employee is less stressed because they just don't care about your company that much?
2. Passive Aggressiveness. "but more inhibited members of the team avoid any discussions with him". In an ideal growth culture, every member is giving open feedback in context, in real-time. For someone seeking the "truth", nothing is more unkind that passive aggressive behavior.
imo, the CTO f-ed up here.. instead of pointing the finger at Boz, should have focused on creating an environment where the process for resolution is true candor and real-time feedback for team improvement. That letter arose from a process of gossip, rolling into back-room conversations, rolling into a secret, anonymous survey, which led to a HR meeting w/ Boz. A better process is to set expectations for interactions and behavior amongst the whole team. It is cool that the CTO found a way to give some direct feedback and spur Boz's own thinking, just not best process outcome for team.
Everyone needs to know how to respect one another's feelings.. both the guy who is callous, and the guy who is sensitive. A manager responding to the passive aggressiveness of a sensitive team member is naturally going to sympathize more, but the squeaky wheel doesn't point to the root cause and is, in fact, rewarding unkindness.
3. "Kids Crying for No Reason" - google it. Is it kind to take pictures and laugh at kids crying? Have you ever been in a situation where you felt your co-workers emotions were perhaps unwarranted, unnecessary, or misapplied? Does your employer screen employees for the appropriateness of their emotional reactions in the kinds of situations you will interact with them?
How can you take responsibility for how your actions affect others if you have a co-worker who is upset about the workplace equivalent of "I flushed my poop before I could look at it"?
Re: Be Kind
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thing is - most peoples' reactions to things aren't really arbitrary. There are some outliers, and a good deal of individual variation, but by and large most human emotions follow pretty consistent patterns. It can be hard to see them (particularly when you're young and haven't had a lot of practice interacting with people), but the more you get out and make socially awkward mistakes, the more you can form a ment…
> (particularly when you're young and haven't had a lot of practice interacting with people) What's with the potshots at younger people that I keep seeing on HN? Things like undermining their experiences, their abilities, or their viewpoints. "Pff, I used to think like you, but now I know better"; "I did the same thing, but then I realized that I was being a moron"; "Let me guess, you haven't yet? Then your opinion i…
Re: Be Kind
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
I rather liked that book and want to disagree with many of the points it tries to make, but find myself choosing not to. It is not economically or socially beneficial for me to be as blunt as I am - but my personal morality triumphs over both of those. If someone is wrong, they are wrong and I will let them know they are wrong. It won't win me any friends and it isn't beneficial for me to be as blunt as I am - but I…
my personal morality triumphs over both of those. If someone is wrong, they are wrong and I will let them know they are wrong. So, your personal morality requires you to not only offend people, but to reduce the odds of them hearing what you're saying because you choose to deliver it in an unkind manner. This is absurdly self-serving of you, and really only goes to show that you're not actually interested in "[lettin…
Re: Be Kind
#206I am not sure I agree 100% with this. If both people are working on a really hard problem and the argument is based on theory, then yes, you should be kind. But if a colleague routinely creates more work for you and he thinks he is a competent programmer when not, then being kind will only further stroke his ego. I am literally facing this at work. One of my colleague has an opinion on everything. Its quite frustrati…
Oh, the engineerian contrarian. A legend as old as time itself.
Re: Be Kind
#207I am an Engineering major(I have been programming since I was 13), and I have a bad habit of over-analyzing everything. I never skim over the details, and I always try to dig into a topic as much as I can to make sure my interpretations are correct. Because of this attitude, I can not enjoy fantasy novels. They ask me to bridge the gap between multiple paragraphs with insufficient information. But at the same time, I…
I believe to just don't care much about detail, someone is saying something that is not completely true ? As long as the main point is correct no one care about little detail.
No be pedantic...
Try to emphasasis with whoever know a little less than you, do you remember the last time you learned lets say closure ? They were hard at first ? What does it even means to return a function ? Now you use closure everyday.
Whenever somebody ask you about closure remember how you felt the first time you were learning it ? "function than return another function" is true, but it does not help anybody who is learning... Why ? What is the point ? How it is possible ? When they should be used ?
Go deeper in your explanation, it will make you more a mentor than a simple asoles that know a lot of pointless thing but does not what to help anybody...
Also, I made the same mistake over and over...
When somebody tell me something I am used to register just what they told me.
It looks like that people wrap any single word in a huge contest that I never consider...
So it may happens that if I say something in the wrong tone, other people think: "Ohhh he consider himself so smart that he said that in that nasty way... For sure he think I am stupid" and I sound mean... But definitely is not what I want...
Anyway, I still have lot to learn...
Re: Be Kind
#208This is a fantastic post and hits really close to home. I'm currently going through almost the exact same situation, where I'm effectively being demoted due to my general lack of kindness. It's also important to note that if boz is anything like me, he probably had to be almost fired for the lesson to go through. For most of my life, people have been telling me I need to be kinder (especially my parents), but I've ne…
I find it easier to be kind when I try to see things from the perspective of the other person. I quickly put myself in their position & try to understand what would be helpful and what would be counter-productive. Observing and listening to others goes a long way. That needy coworker that's annoying may be craving affirmation: smile when appropriate and avoid blaming their identity for their actions ("you failed" vs.…
I actually think the Golden Rule is very ineffective. Personally, I'd prefer if everyone got quickly to the point with me and said things quickly and plainly. While this is great for many engineers, some other people prefer a lot more subtlety.
Re: Be Kind
#209I really like these two paragraphs towards the end: Being kind isn’t the same as being nice. It isn’t about superficial praise. It doesn’t mean dulling your opinions. And it shouldn’t diminish the passion with which you present them. Being kind is fundamentally about taking responsibility for your impact on the people around you. It requires you be mindful of their feelings and considerate of the way your presence af…
Capitalism seems to cater to selfish individuals? A lot of selfish individuals get far financially in life. Think about some of the "successful" people, some of us, idolize here on HN. Think about that person before they became rich and famous. I can usually bring up a list of retched things they did to become financially successful.
That's the rub. They become comfortable in life and are in complete denial over how they carved their way to the top of their version of success.
That's all I have--I have a headache, but kind people know they are kind. They don't need to advertise it. They don't need an audience in order to give to the suffering (human, animals, environment). They are just kind!
Now, the Fakers--well that's what makes me unkind. Oh there are so many Fakers.
(I have a sister who stepped on family members in order to become financially successful, and her journey was ugly. I might be a little over sensitive when it comes to people and kindness.)
Re: Be Kind
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're confused about how the dickhead non-dickhead spectrum works. From the viewpoint of a dickhead, an honest and intelligent person is a dickhead. The honest and intelligent person has the potential to expose the dickhead as a dickhead, so the dickhead will do everything he can to convince everyone else that the honest and intelligent person is a dickhead. A dickhead would see an honest and intelligent person as a…
seeing as how there are, in this very thead, people that consider OP to have been a dickhead, i think i'm going to go with the primary source on this one.
If FaceBook had an average employee instead of the OP, they might not have been as successful.