Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#161

Post by backprojection » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:30 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #143

Actually, the best way to fight this would be to fund people to break the DRM blob. What better way to drive home the uselessness of DRM than to have zillions of people having an automatic plugin that bypasses DRM everywhere it runs?

Wouldn't this violate the dmca? If it's not something people can get with minimal effort, then millions of people are not going to use it.

The ad-blocking plugins are so successful because their so easy to get. If something's illegal to distribute, then it's sufficiently inconvenient to obtain (tormenting, etc.) that most people won't bother.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/f1/beware_trivial_inconveniences/

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#162

Post by forgottenpass » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:36 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #143

Actually, the best way to fight this would be to fund people to break the DRM blob. What better way to drive home the uselessness of DRM than to have zillions of people having an automatic plugin that bypasses DRM everywhere it runs?

No, that is just an iteration of a cat and mouse game. It doesn't matter if the technically-weak position can be overcome when it is used by parties with exponentially more money and legal power.

Fighting this fight on technical grounds alone is a surefire way to accelerate the inevitability of locked down computing platforms that restrict what the owner is capable of.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#163

Post by notsony » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:38 AM UTC

byuu wrote: post #157

notsony wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ridiculous! He was hounded out, forced to resign and you damn well know it. Bigotry? What are you smoking?

> Ridiculous! He was hounded out, forced to resign and you damn well know it. https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignat... "On April 3, 2014 Brendan Eich voluntarily stepped down as CEO of Mozilla." (I'm not going to, but) I can tell you to stop posting on HN every single day of the year indefinitely. But I can't make you. I don't have that power. If you choose to, it's your choice . Eich was not f…

This is madness. Have you ever heard of constructive dismissal?

California Supreme Court:

"the employer either intentionally created or knowingly permitted working conditions that were so intolerable or aggravated at the time of the employee's resignation that a reasonable employer would realize that a reasonable person in the employee's position would be compelled to resign"

Wikipedia:

"In employment law, constructive dismissal, also called constructive discharge, occurs when an employee resigns as a result of the employer creating a hostile work environment. Since the resignation was not truly voluntary, it is in effect a termination. For example, when an employer makes life extremely difficult for an employee, to attempt to have the employee resign, rather than outright firing the employee, the employer is trying to effect a constructive discharge."

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#164

Post by yuhong » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:41 AM UTC

notsony wrote: post #148

throwaway150512 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, so... Mozilla itself deserves to shoulder at least as much of the blame due to a number of decisions that range from mediocre to downright terrible. And I'm not even talking about what happened with Brendan. I'm talking about the organization's downturn during the years that directly correspond with the tenure of people like Gary "JavaScript rendering engine" Kovacs and the years that saw Sullivan at the height…

What happened with Brendan may be very relevant. See my post further up in this thread. Brendan did not like what the W3C was doing with DRM and was quite vocal about it. His prop 8 donation was public knowledge for years and nobody had a problem with it... but then suddenly the board, the employees and the community were outraged. As soon as he was forced out the other execs at Mozilla announced they would be implem…

But that is not the point. The point is that the problems with Mozilla that actually matter has nothing to do with either.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#165

Post by slang800 » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:46 AM UTC

forgottenpass wrote: post #162

bsder wrote: post #143

Actually, the best way to fight this would be to fund people to break the DRM blob. What better way to drive home the uselessness of DRM than to have zillions of people having an automatic plugin that bypasses DRM everywhere it runs?

No, that is just an iteration of a cat and mouse game. It doesn't matter if the technically-weak position can be overcome when it is used by parties with exponentially more money and legal power. Fighting this fight on technical grounds alone is a surefire way to accelerate the inevitability of locked down computing platforms that restrict what the owner is capable of.

Unless it's easier to break DRM than it is to build a new implementation... Then we're just causing the companies that invest in DRM to lose more money than the companies that respect freedom.

I can't say from experience how difficult it is to break and implement the DRM used on the web, but if it's anything like the DRM used in videogames, it should be doable in a couple weeks (with enough motivation).

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#166

Post by shpx » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #106

shpx wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody can silo their beliefs So we need to stop discrimination before it happens? How do you feel about implementing some pre-crime measures nation-wide? As soon as he started advocating some anti-gay hiring policies, or rejecting pull requests from transvestites, then the consequences would've made sense to me. Though that's an idealist view, in reality letting him stay would've been interpreted as an endorsment…

I'm having a really hard time writing this without snark, so forgive me if any of it comes through: In reality letting him stay would've been interpreted as an endorsement by all the people making a huge fuss about it Those people "making a huge fuss about it" were denied equal rights for an additional six years thanks, in part, to Eich. Are you suggesting they should have just shut up? Where do you draw the line? Di…

> Those people "making a huge fuss about it" were denied equal rights > Where do you draw the line?

At "anger doesn't justify actions that hurt others". I'm not sure what your point is, getting him fired didn't help... A guy was denied the first amendment and mozilla lost a talented engineer, a net loss.

> Rights are rights - I don't see how tolerating someone who thinks gays are inferior is one whit different than tolerating someone who thinks blacks or women are inferior.

Provided they do not act on those beliefs, I agree, people should not be persecuted based on some beliefs ingrained in them from childhood. Looks like I'm more tolerant than you are.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#167

Post by Karunamon » Wed, May 13, 2015, 1:59 AM UTC

shpx wrote: post #166

Karunamon wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a really hard time writing this without snark, so forgive me if any of it comes through: In reality letting him stay would've been interpreted as an endorsement by all the people making a huge fuss about it Those people "making a huge fuss about it" were denied equal rights for an additional six years thanks, in part, to Eich. Are you suggesting they should have just shut up? Where do you draw the line? Di…

> Those people "making a huge fuss about it" were denied equal rights > Where do you draw the line? At "anger doesn't justify actions that hurt others". I'm not sure what your point is, getting him fired didn't help... A guy was denied the first amendment and mozilla lost a talented engineer, a net loss. > Rights are rights - I don't see how tolerating someone who thinks gays are inferior is one whit different than t…

For what seems like the third time this thread, Eich stepped down. He was not fired, he was not asked to leave by the board. He quit. This is not a trivial distinction and it smacks of dishonesty that you continue to repeat it.

Provided they do not act on those beliefs,

But he did act on them. Eich didn't get people mad at him because he thought gay people were icky, he got people mad at him because he took action to strip away their rights.

And kindly can the personal attacks.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#168

Post by bcheung » Wed, May 13, 2015, 2:09 AM UTC

ptx wrote: post #85

bcheung wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of a good reason to deliberately remove it from your browser. Why would it be worse if more companies used DRM? I can think of some edge cases on obscure devices or if you are pirate but other than that it seems like legal users would be unaffected and not even notice it.

> it seems like legal users would be unaffected and not even notice it. Yes, just like Sony said in response to the rootkit scandal – "Most people don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?" DRM is a declaration from the publishers that they distrust you so much that they must be granted absolute control over your machine. You can't retain higher privileges over your own machine than they ha…

That highlights the need for standard DRM rather than having each company using their own code that runs on your computer.

With a standard DRM solution, the only person you would need to trust is the browser vendor. This seems like a better alternative than having a company force you to use their DRM.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#169

Post by angersock » Wed, May 13, 2015, 2:15 AM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #76

angersock wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those match "stated beliefs". At best, you infer support--similarly, you might say that by voting for Obama one supports drone strikes on civilians. This whole thing is screwy enough as it is without putting words in people's mouths to then feign outrage over.

You appear to have missed the last sentence. If you don't see the difference between donating to a politician who has an entire constellation of beliefs, and donating to a single purpose lobbying campaign, we've nothing further to discuss.

So, again, I tend to be charitable towards others. There are several other explanations for the donation: maybe he was drunk and did it on a dare, maybe he was bored, maybe he needed to spend the money to piss somebody off, maybe he actually does respect LGBT folks but believes that marriage should be clearly defined, maybe he wanted to force the issue because he found it so odious he wanted to see it properly overturned, who knows.

The responsible thing is to say "Well, that looks odd, but he hasn't said anything else, so let's give him the benefit of a doubt, as he's done well by the people over whom he has direct authority."

That's obviously not what anybody has done.

Re: Mozilla Launches a New Firefox Version Without DRM Support

#170

Post by angersock » Wed, May 13, 2015, 2:20 AM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #130

hoopd wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is actually "Is it appropriate for someone who takes active steps to treat some people as undeserving of basic rights[1] to take the ultimate leadership role in a diversity focused company?" First, it's not a "diversity focused company" it's a company focused on building a Free and Open internet. Being socially inclusive in their internal culture is secondary. Moreover Eich's definition of inclusivity…

I again challenge you to provide me with a single shred of evidence that in his 16 years at Mozilla Eich treated even one member of the LGBT community unfairly from his position of power. But again, we're not worried about Eich's impact on Mozilla, which was, as you say, positive. I don't think he did abuse his power or hurt anybody by his actions at Mozilla - at least not from the 90's to 08 which is when the first…

You're moving the goalposts here--you initially wanted to paint Eich as this evil bigot, and then when presented with the "Well, in 16 years, where's the proof", you hem and haw.

Imagine you were a staunch socialist, and your boss is friendly, supportive, and competent. Then, she gets promoted to CEO. And you find out the CEO of your company donated massive bucks at a fundraising dinner for, say, Mitt Romney. What do you think your working relationship?

Hint: you shouldn't be a single-issue person. If they've done well by you and others, even if you disagree with them or function differently than them politically, you should treat them with courtesy and kindness.