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Be Kind

boz.com

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Re: Be Kind

#171

Post by jorgearturo »

fr0styMatt2 wrote: post #151
latchkey wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you could see who downvoted you? I'd be less annoyed by a downvote from pg, because I probably deserved it, than a downvote from someone completely random, who I might not care about. In some ways, I also wish downvoting cost you a point like it does on stackoverflow.

I don't think the upvote/downvote system here provides enough feedback to the person being voted. There just isn't the information there. For the longest time I was confused at seeing down-voted comments because I mentally assumed that downvotes mean "this is a troll comment / this is some kind of abusive comment". Not so. Also (and I've said this before so apologies for repeating myself!), if downvotes do mean 'disa…

I agree with you.IMHO, graying out text is a way to convey censorship. Allowing each individual to configure his HN experience sounds positive to me. I like reading controversial opinions just like you. For me, it's both a way to challenge my worldview and a way to understand a particular community better.

Re: Be Kind

#172

Post by RockyMcNuts »

fsk wrote: post #143
beachstartup wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The boss was giving someone else a favor, making them the lead of this now-important project, some up-and-coming hotshot. He made up an excuse about "bad attitude", while just using it as cover for backstabbing him. so, basically someone who was competent and agreeable was favored by his boss to get a promotion, and the person who acted like a know-it-all dickhead 24/7 got sent to the basement. that's a real shocke…

You're confused about how the dickhead non-dickhead spectrum works. From the viewpoint of a dickhead, an honest and intelligent person is a dickhead. The honest and intelligent person has the potential to expose the dickhead as a dickhead, so the dickhead will do everything he can to convince everyone else that the honest and intelligent person is a dickhead. A dickhead would see an honest and intelligent person as a…

On the one hand, I've been in situations where dickheads would undermine me behind my back to management, tell me other people were undermining me, act like I was I a dickhead if I responded to a direct question from management directly instead of clearing it through them.

On the other hand, the dickhead always thinks he's a non-dickhead.

If everyone you meet is a dickhead, you're the dickhead.

So be kind to everybody, dickhead or non-dickhead.

Re: Be Kind

#173

Post by jasonwocky »

I dunno. I'm not a big fan of the "be kind" angle on things. Too often that translates to, "Withhold the feedback you have for fear that you'll upset the other person." Or, "Don't tell anyone that you think you have a better idea than the one someone else is championing."

I generally think that people are "too kind" at work in a lot of ways, and it leads to a lot of grousing and internal stress on the part of the people who have to bite their lip rather than contribute to their fullest.

Rather than "Be Kind", I prefer the duo of, "Be Honest, but Be Thoughtful First".

Re: Be Kind

#174

Post by applecore »

thisisboz wrote: post #114
neverartful wrote: post #42

Nice article. When did the golden rule get invalidated?

The Golden Rule (treating others as you want to be treated) isn't actually very good. I prefer the Platinum Rule (treat others as THEY want to be treated)

The Platinum Rule isn't very good either. My preference is the converse of the Golden Rule: DON'T treat others as you would have them NOT treat you.

Re: Be Kind

#175

Post by morgante »

This is a fantastic post and hits really close to home. I'm currently going through almost the exact same situation, where I'm effectively being demoted due to my general lack of kindness.

It's also important to note that if boz is anything like me, he probably had to be almost fired for the lesson to go through. For most of my life, people have been telling me I need to be kinder (especially my parents), but I've never cared until now. It's certainly held me back socially, but never professionally. I never received a worse grade for being unkind. I never lost out on a job opportunity (being unkind is different from being an asshole). Until getting demoted, I never felt kindness was relevant to success.

It stings, but I've finally realized that I need to act on this. I'm re-reading Dale Carnegie and am, more importantly, trying to deliberately consider the emotional impact of everything I say. (If anyone has advice or resources, I'm all ears.)

-----

I probably should have posted this on a throwaway, but decided to be transparent. Please be kind.

Re: Be Kind

#176

Post by jorgearturo »

mkramlich wrote: post #134
ffn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, totally this. Moreover, I'd like to add anonymously down-voting / reporting someone's opinion just because it's not yours is just as mean-spirited as calling someone names. Every internet message board has its own culture with its own take on what's "right" and what's "wrong", and on HN (and reddit) the institutionally accepted way of being mean is misusing the downvoting / flagkilling system to attempt to bleep…

well said I basically stopped commenting (well, except now -- doh) here on HN because of how frequently I saw toxic responses and punishment down-voting. There are a noisy subset of users here who either (a) can't understand or respect generalizations, especially based on older/real-life experience, or (b) demand "proof" for any claim, or (c) will punish any kind of not-narrowly-PC statement. And then the blatantly r…

I'm against trigger-happy flagging/downvoters too. On the other hand, I actually like the fact that Reddit's and HN's communities are different in that way. I go to Reddit when I'm hungry for lots of information and want to have a good time, also to get in touch with a broader internet community. I come to HN when I want to know what's making an impact, and that means -among MANY other things- surviving criticism.

So I would not complain because HN needs criticism. I'd rather suggest a technical solution through UX design, for the false alarm flagging mostly.

Re: Be Kind

#177

Post by myanonhnaccount »

fweespeech wrote: post #33
mankyd wrote: post #4

I really like these two paragraphs towards the end: Being kind isn’t the same as being nice. It isn’t about superficial praise. It doesn’t mean dulling your opinions. And it shouldn’t diminish the passion with which you present them. Being kind is fundamentally about taking responsibility for your impact on the people around you. It requires you be mindful of their feelings and considerate of the way your presence af…

> It's perfectly OK to disagree with someone; but please consider doing so in a respectful and thoughtful tone. The problem I've found is I literally get ignored and end up repeatedly dealing with the same mess until I stop being "kind" about it. I generally have to do literally 10x as much work to be "kind" than when I'm less generous about it. The problem with kindness is its frequently taken [in IT, in places I've…

> The problem I've found is I literally get ignored and end up repeatedly dealing with the same mess until I stop being "kind" about it.

I am currently in a situation like that, and have been in similar situations over the years. There seems to be this gift that many people have where they can lie on a near compulsive basis, and no one will do anything about it. Disagreeing with them in a reasoned and polite manner is beyond ineffective, somehow "you're wrong" on their part wins every argument, regardless of the evidence. Only when you eventually get so fed up and cause a scene pointing out blatant problems, errors, and incompetence, only then does something finally happen, but of course then the response is "hey man, why didn't you just say something?" And despite there being a long paper trail of doing exactly that with no success, this tactic once again wins the day, and the reputation of the one who freaks out is the one that is tarnished in the eyes of management. And then of course, the cycle begins all over again.

I don't ask why you have to put a gun to some people's heads to get them to do the job they are paid (handsomely) for, that I can understand, but why is it so common that no one is willing to stand up for what is right, and for management to allow this behavior? I have seen it on different projects in different cities, and across various industries. It really makes me wonder if somehow the problem is with me and I try to reason through that, but as hard as I try I just can't make that case.

Re: Be Kind

#178

Post by cookiecaper »

beachstartup wrote: post #130
fsk wrote: post #93

I had a completely different interpretation of the incident at Facebook. He had developed some key features that were now important. Instead of mentoring him to work better with others, his boss demoted him. The boss was giving someone else a favor, making them the lead of this now-important project, some up-and-coming hotshot. He made up an excuse about "bad attitude", while just using it as cover for backstabbing h…

> The boss was giving someone else a favor, making them the lead of this now-important project, some up-and-coming hotshot. He made up an excuse about "bad attitude", while just using it as cover for backstabbing him. so, basically someone who was competent and agreeable was favored by his boss to get a promotion, and the person who acted like a know-it-all dickhead 24/7 got sent to the basement. that's a real shocke…

Indeed. We should be under no illusion -- employment is a popularity contest. In non-startups, the only thing that matters is how much the people around you, especially the high-ranking people, like you. Other things matter only in the most extreme circumstances -- every normal value can be hand-waved away if the boss likes you enough.

If you want to be a successful employee, view yourself as a politician and run a successful campaign: minimize anything that will be viewed negatively, blatantly exploit peoples' biases to emphasize a positive image. Don't talk about divisive subjects, regardless of their relevance to your job. Anyone smart enough to see what's going on but naive enough to call you out will immediately be viewed badly, the only real threat to your power is someone who is smart enough to see the manipulation and experienced enough to respond to it through his own counter-manipulations.

Re: Be Kind

#179

Post by latchkey »

jorgearturo wrote: post #165
latchkey wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you could see who downvoted you? I'd be less annoyed by a downvote from pg, because I probably deserved it, than a downvote from someone completely random, who I might not care about. In some ways, I also wish downvoting cost you a point like it does on stackoverflow.

>> I'd be less annoyed by a downvote from pg, because I probably deserved it, than a downvote from someone completely random, who I might not care about. I admire PGs work too, but don't you think this criteria would introduce to the community a herd-like mindset of following perceived moral leaders instead of evaluating ideas for their own standing?

Sorry, I don't understand the relationship you're trying to make between votes and mindset.

If someone important likes what I said, I'm going to think that I made a good comment. If they dislike it, then I'm going to reconsider what I said a bit more deeply. Neither of these would change my mindset from a simple up/down vote. I'd want a comment or discussion to take place first.

Re: Be Kind

#180

Post by Dewie3 »

nostrademons wrote: post #31
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this is also incredibly exhausting. Most peoples' reactions to things are arbitrary at best and constant worrying about how they will take something is just way too much BS to put into my day. I bought pretty deeply into this philosophy once and it just made me neurotic and quiet at a time of my life where those things very much hurt me. I think being selectively kind makes a lot more sense. I'm kind to c…

The thing is - most peoples' reactions to things aren't really arbitrary. There are some outliers, and a good deal of individual variation, but by and large most human emotions follow pretty consistent patterns. It can be hard to see them (particularly when you're young and haven't had a lot of practice interacting with people), but the more you get out and make socially awkward mistakes, the more you can form a ment…

> (particularly when you're young and haven't had a lot of practice interacting with people)

What's with the potshots at younger people that I keep seeing on HN? Things like undermining their experiences, their abilities, or their viewpoints. "Pff, I used to think like you, but now I know better"; "I did the same thing, but then I realized that I was being a moron"; "Let me guess, you haven't yet? Then your opinion is useless"; "Young people without kids will stupidly work themselves to death for their employee because they have nothing better to do with their time".

I can't say that I've experienced that older people (talking only adults here) are more socially apt, or compassionate, than younger people. And that sentence was completely optional to the rest of the paragraph.

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