Earlier quoted context omitted.
Traffic flowing through one discovery channel is free, but traffic flowing through another isn't. While technically separate from net neutrality as it's happening in a different place in the networking stack, it's the same principle: if it flows over the network, it should be equal.
That's not the same thing: Net neutrality is about the service provider not getting involved in what the service carries. A content owner can freely decide who can/cant view their content, that's completely up to them. Same way we have regional rights for video content. Just because we want it to be equal doesn't take their rights away, regardless of consumer perception, etc.
Wait, Google Sent Me
181–190 of 246 posts
Re: Wait, Google Sent Me
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
> WSJ certainly deserves to set whatever price on their work that they wish, and they also deserved to be compensated according to the value of that work. Don't you think we should also have the option to decide not to pay using these "dirty" tricks of the trade?
I think we should (and do) have the option to decide not to pay and not consume the content.
Personally, I don't think it's fair that WSJ simultaneously demands money for content but leaves open a loophole so they can get Google exposure, and then complain when people use said exposure. It smacks of wanting to have their cake and eat it too.
The entire point of the Google link and the whole paywall circumvention is so they can get traffic to their site, right? This implies that getting people on their site is more valuable to them than locking their content behind a paywall.
They could always serve only a summary to both Google and to nonsubscribers from other referrers, but this leads to people mentally filing them in the "useless link, never click" bucket along with Experts Exchange and other crappy content farms.
Re: Wait, Google Sent Me
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's quite a bit absurd to complain about technical solutions which fullfill the needs of users. Nonsense. Users want everything for free, instantly and with no ads. I would like my sandwiches from the shop downstairs to be free all the time. But it's not cool to forge stamps on a loyalty card.
> Users want everything for free, instantly and with no ads. And where's the source to that little strawman of yours? I'm sure users also want hot threesomes and a million dollars.
Re: Wait, Google Sent Me
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Just because it's easy though, doesn't make it "right". If something is both easy and rewarding for those who do it, don't base your business on trusting people not to do it. Consequentially, don't base your morality code on a notion of "people shouldn't do it". They shouldn't do it because it hurts businesses, but it only hurts businesses because they're foolish enough to make the first mistake.
I believe your foundation for this argument is flawed and doesn't answer my statement: just because something is easy, does not make it right. "People shouldn't do it" is the fundamental way laws and regulations work. You shouldn't damage property or steal items or assault people. But you can. Very easily. And depending on when/where/how you can probably get away with it. Does that make it ok? Actions in the physical…
With that in mind, why should a rational human choose to apply morality to an entity that has no obligation to do the same in return?
(This is not a value judgement on WSJ in particular, more a general statement as to the way of the world)
The way I see it, there are two arguments for this plugin to not exist:
1) "What if everyone does it? If everyone does it, WSJ makes no money and goes away". The appeal to utility. Problem is, it carries the unstated and unsubstantiated assumption that enough people will use this plugin to actually impact their profits in a measurable way.
Because of that, I call this argument invalid.
2) "It goes against the wishes of the content providers". The appeal to morality - but as mentioned above, this is strictly a one way consideration, and it's subjective for each person. There's also the moral consideration that WSJ has chosen to make this content visible for Google users, but only because Google forbids showing different content to the spider and to the human. Then, you're left answering an objectively unanswerable question - is a person who googles for most of their news and ends up on the WSJ often doing something wrong? Or does it only apply when you install the plugin and circumvent the company's intent?
The net effect on WSJ's profit is the same either way.
Re: Wait, Google Sent Me
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
This raised an interesting question for me - how much money is saved on a per-subscriber basis by sending the digital version vs. print (for the NYT)? Their pricing certainly doesn't reflect it: Web + Smartphone: $3.75/wk $16.25/mo $195/yr Web + Tablet: $5.00/wk $21.67/mo $260/yr All Digital Access: $8.75/wk $37.92/mo $455/yr 7-Day Home Delivery: $8.90/wk $38.57/mo $463/yr There are multiple levels of insanity here:…
Actually, thats not true. A broad amount of research wen tin to this (originally at least). There is a method to this madness :)
Re: Wait, Google Sent Me
#186Selectively requiring authentication (based on referrer, user-agent, cookies, etc.) is not a supported feature of the internet. If you want to go ahead and implement it anyway, that's fine - but it's pointless to get mad when it doesn't really work the way you hoped it would.
Re: Wait, Google Sent Me
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it makes you feel better, I feel that both extensions are wrong. If you enjoy reading the WSJ, you should pay for it. They do some really great business reporting and it's not that expensive.
Fine you can have a paywall but then you won't get the free organic traffic from Google. WSJ tries to have it both ways.
Re: Wait, Google Sent Me
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe your foundation for this argument is flawed and doesn't answer my statement: just because something is easy, does not make it right. "People shouldn't do it" is the fundamental way laws and regulations work. You shouldn't damage property or steal items or assault people. But you can. Very easily. And depending on when/where/how you can probably get away with it. Does that make it ok? Actions in the physical…
But just because something hurts a business doesn't make it wrong, either. And it's worth considering that businesses are amoral entities - given the chance, most of them will gladly screw you if it increases their revenue. With that in mind, why should a rational human choose to apply morality to an entity that has no obligation to do the same in return? (This is not a value judgement on WSJ in particular, more a ge…
You're breaking the contract that the content "value" is provided in exchange for something, either attention on ads or cash, depending on the publisher. This is what makes it wrong.
The real issue is that the internet does not allow for effective policing and capture of contract offenders. It's wrongs being committed with no consequence, but this does not justify it being done.
Re: Wait, Google Sent Me
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
But just because something hurts a business doesn't make it wrong, either. And it's worth considering that businesses are amoral entities - given the chance, most of them will gladly screw you if it increases their revenue. With that in mind, why should a rational human choose to apply morality to an entity that has no obligation to do the same in return? (This is not a value judgement on WSJ in particular, more a ge…
It's not about hurting the business. It's not just "wishes". That's the legal framework, also laid out in their terms of service. You're breaking the contract that the content "value" is provided in exchange for something, either attention on ads or cash, depending on the publisher. This is what makes it wrong. The real issue is that the internet does not allow for effective policing and capture of contract offenders…
That contract I never was given a chance to read, or sign, or agree to in any way, mind. Given that, i'm not sure how you can say refusing to do something I never agreed to do in the first place is morally wrong.
This is my whole point - the distinction is entirely arbitrary because WSJ obviously values the attention more than they value the money, else we would be having this conversation right now.
Re: Wait, Google Sent Me
#190Interesting. I posted a Chrome extension that did the same thing a while back (WSJ specific) and HN unanimously told me I was in the wrong, so I took it down. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8109987 This time the comments seem to be mostly positive.
If it makes you feel better, I feel that both extensions are wrong. If you enjoy reading the WSJ, you should pay for it. They do some really great business reporting and it's not that expensive.
It's actually free. At least the first paragraph or so is. And a lot of the personal finance articles are totally free. About 99% of the time that's good enough for me.
So I don't bypass the paywall. I go to WSJ on a daily basis and simply read the free intro text.
I enjoy the WSJ enough that I would gladly pay them, except they play the usual pricing games, which I detest. I wish they just gave me their "best" price, and never tried to jack up that price to whatever they thought they could get away with at renewal. On a few occasions I've had a 1 year subscription for IIRC perhaps $99 but at renewal they tried to jack up the price substantially.
They've been playing these pricing games on and off for at least 10 years, if not longer. I have been willing to pay them at least $1,000 over that time. Instead they've gotten at most $200. But they're not alone in this. Most newspapers and magazines follow that pricing model.
OTOH the NY Times is great. I always clear cookies and browse w/o Javascript and I can read all the articles for free. This is a deliberate decision on their part. Still, I probably don't spend more than a few minutes a day on their site, so it's not like they could get $100/yr from me.
For a while, the NY Times was hilariously free. News articles were free, while they charged for their "editorial" content. That was perhaps a good idea for their core NYC demographic, but for other people (like me) the opposite would have been more attractive. How much would it cost me to keep from ever even seeing a headline for anything written by Maureen Dowd? Alas, that pricing model has long since changed.