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Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

businessinsider.com

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Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#141

Post by DrJosiah »

Zelphyr wrote: post #119
sktrdie wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A dad isn't in the delivery room just to "witness" the birth, or at least he shouldn't be. But I mean, surely the "witnessing" is important on its own, no?

We went through the Lamaze classes where they tell you all the things you'll be doing to help your wife birth your first child. Then we went to the delivery room where the nurses pointed next to my wife's head and said, "you stand here" while they did all the things I thought I was supposed to do. And, honestly, I didn't mind. It was nice letting the professionals do their jobs and I could sort of be a cheerleader (b…

Hospitals and experiences differ, neither of my kids' births were like that.

Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#142

Post by TeMPOraL »

fsloth wrote: post #35
AstroChimpHam wrote: post #8

All the negative press and comments about this miss the point. The guy has very specific, very ambitious goals that he has a track record of achieving. He prioritizes those literally above everything and expects the same from key employees. Working at Tesla, which has already done a ton to change the entire car industry is a huge privilege, and no one's making you do it. If you can get a job there, you can get a job…

Playing by a specific, abnormal ruleset or not playing at all sounds more like a cult and a recipe for fatal groupthink than a healthy company culture. But hey, I'm not saying cults can't achieve great things. It's just that they are not usually that healthy for most participants.

True, but this "cult" says up-front that it cares about the end-goal and not profits, and is inviting people who are willing to think alike. I've noticed however that as both SpaceX and Tesla gain media exposure, there's an influx of people who want to join only to get a good line on their resume. These companies are definitely not healthy for such participants.

Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#143

Post by AYBABTME »

Not excusing the comment, it's pretty harsh.

It seems that everyone praises the prioritization of family over work. The quote that's brought up goes like:

"When you’re gone would you rather have your gravestone say, ‘He never missed a meeting.’ Or one that said, ‘He was a great father'."

This supposes that the acceptable thing to do for any human being is to desire having a family and caring for your own kind. It also supposes that work can only be a succession a meaningless events.

I see another take on this. I see that some projects can be life projects. Some of those life projects can happen to be 'work'. Desiring the completion of a life project, as your mean to live your humanity, is as valid in my opinion, as the desire to fulfill your humanity through the experience of family.

When you look at someone like Elon Musk and criticize him for not caring about family, you criticize him for having a different set of priorities than yours. The argument is an appeal to emotion and some assumed higher truth. It's not valid. There's more than one way to focus your life. You don't have to focus on having and raising children. You might want to do that. Or not.

   ---
That said, it's pretty rude to expect other people to focus their life on a project instead of their families. However, I can understand that a leader desire that their company be formed of people likely focused and minded.

Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#144

Post by pbreit »

cwyers wrote: post #86
pbreit wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unlikely the employee was expected to miss the actual birth, despite what the book apparently tries to imply (i.e., context is missing).

Assuming the Business Insider summary is correct (which is an assumption, yes), the book isn't trying to imply it, the book is outright claiming it. It is possible that either the book or the Business Insider article is mistaken -- gets facts wrong, is misleading, whatever. That's not "out of context" so much as it is "being wrong," though.

True. I guess the problem I had was that it quoted Elon but not the employee. So it was lacking context in that manner.

Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#145

Post by cmsj »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #138
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reminded of this famous Stallman incident, where he basically scorns at another developer for having a baby: http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms

Which reminds me of this RMS classic: http://www.art.net/Studios/Hackers/Hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-d... I can't say I disagree with RMS. Having a child is really nothing special. Every other person on the planet does that. And while I respect that for many parents, having their own kid is the best moment of their lives, I think RMS is right to point out that except said parents, no one else cares. It's a huge problem o…

You might not care, RMS might not care, but please don't assume that "no one else cares". I don't know you, and I don't know RMS, but he doesn't seem like the most emotionally intelligent person, perhaps you aren't either. Nothing wrong with that, you are who you are.

Some people are capable of responding very strongly to the emotions of others. I'm not saying they're better than you, just that they're different to you, and that they exist :)

Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#146

Post by cmsj »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #139
chrisbennet wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just a rationalization. I really doubt Elon cares about anything but his own driving ambition. People who can't prioritize their own loved ones over their jobs, surely don't care for "humanity". They are the very definition of selfish. They simply do what they want first and then rationalize it afterwards. On top of that, these selfish people expect/demand that their employees work infinitely harder than they…

> I really doubt Elon cares about anything but his own driving ambition. People who can't prioritize their own loved ones over their jobs, surely don't care for "humanity". They are the very definition of selfish. They simply do what they want first and then rationalize it afterwards. No, I think what you wrote is selfish and is a typical rationalization of having a botched moral compass. I should prioritize my own o…

" I should prioritize my own over the rest of the world"

It feels like you're suggesting that a job such as SpaceX is automatically beneficial to the rest of the world.

I suggest that you are assuming too much. Could SpaceX usher in a golden age of transport and colonisation? Sure. It might also fail.

I suggest that you are also assuming too much by suggesting that parenting your children is selfish and (implicitly) doesn't benefit the world. It's possibly that SpaceX takes us all to Mars and none of the kids/descendants of its employees were ever going to achieve world changing things without their mum/dad being around more. It's also possible that some of those kids would have achieved greatness if only they had a more present mum/dad in their life.

You can't bail the future down, it's made of unrealised possibilities that we make real with our choices. Those choices are either implicit or explicit and we have no way of knowing what will actually happen.

Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#147

Post by TeMPOraL »

cmsj wrote: post #145
TeMPOraL wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which reminds me of this RMS classic: http://www.art.net/Studios/Hackers/Hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-d... I can't say I disagree with RMS. Having a child is really nothing special. Every other person on the planet does that. And while I respect that for many parents, having their own kid is the best moment of their lives, I think RMS is right to point out that except said parents, no one else cares. It's a huge problem o…

You might not care, RMS might not care, but please don't assume that "no one else cares". I don't know you, and I don't know RMS, but he doesn't seem like the most emotionally intelligent person, perhaps you aren't either. Nothing wrong with that, you are who you are. Some people are capable of responding very strongly to the emotions of others. I'm not saying they're better than you, just that they're different to y…

Ok, I might overstated it for dramatics, but what I'm complaining about is that being considerate should go both ways. I'll be happy for you that you have a kid and congratulate you, but please don't assume that it's in any way as important for me as it is for you.

It reminds me a thing my friend told me once, that she sometimes wonder whether if she'll have a kid, will she be as obnoxious about it on Facebook as many of her friends.

Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#148

Post by DanBC »

silencio wrote: post #71
DanBC wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's a good idea if the would be parents talk about what they want to happen and write it down. Just in case.

My parents' birth plan went out the window when my mother had an emergency C-section 4 weeks early because I was breech and there were unexpected complications. Plus, mom had an adverse reaction to the anesthesia that was used. It's not easy to plan for things that could go wrong - which is why I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that my partner or my mother is there to advocate for me if I can't for…

Birth plans have moved on. They should consider the rare but catestrophic events -- the doctors can only save either the mother or the child. Which one do they save?

Most people don't like thinking about it, and most parents won't need it. But it is a good idea.

Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#149

Post by ezl »

Imagine a world where that level of insensitivity was inextricably coupled with the sort of accomplishments he produces for humanity.

I'm not saying they are, but if asshole-ness and makes-awesomethings-ness were linked, would it be preferable for him to be "a nice guy" and not "a guy who drove plausible solutions to global online payments, solar power, electric cars, and space travel"?

Or would we rather have another nice guy that didn't do those things?

It's hard to imagine that anyone who continues to work for Elon Musk's companies right now doesn't have alternatives. So they're CHOOSING that, for whatever reason. Maybe they tolerate his behavior to be a part of what he does. But nobody is really trapped there without options.

Maybe (probably) it's possible to be nice and be awesome. But it's not important to me that Elon Musk is nice. If I have to pick between his creation and his compassion, I pick creation.

Re: Elon Musk email to Tesla employee about missing an event to witness the birth

#150

Post by danielam »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #134
chrisbennet wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow we've gone from "Elon cares more about his business than he does about his employees - to the extreme." To: "Would it be OK to be a dick if you're curing cancer?" And when that didn't play, the argument was reframed again as: "You're harming countless strangers unless you're a dick." Twist it anyway you want, if someone wants to be a selfish dick, they should own it, not rationalize it. I'm pretty sure the co…

> If you can't prioritize (what should be) the most important of your personal relationships above what you want to do, it's unlikely that the real reason you working is because you have a surplus of love for the world. Is having a surplus of love for the world a bad thing? I believe a lot of problems would solve themselves if we have more. Also, relationships are also something you want to do, you aren't forced into…

“I love mankind ... it's people I can't stand!!” ― Charles M. Schulz
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