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Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

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Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#61
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure I worked for a law firm for four and a half years. I received pay raises and promotions and had a very good salary. I worked in a team, and debugged Visual BASIC code and ASP VBScript code. Problem was I was picked on and bullied by some members of management and some coworkers and I didn't know why. The work kept piling on, more programs to debug. It used to take months to debug a program to get it right with q…

Would remote work be an option for you? It might be a good option if controlling your work environment is important for you.

Remote work would be alright with me. I am on disability and allowed to earn a limited amount of income on a part-time basis. I am not able to drive anymore so remote work would be good.

I just need to find something I am good at and doing it remotely, I am out of practice with my skill sets.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#62
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are right, then his point about discriminating is moot. Seems more like he can't find a job he wants, and dismiss others that would be happy to hire him. I can say: "I want to work in Haskel, making games for the Wii U, from home, for 3 hours a day only". No matter what my experience, I won't be hired anytime soon.

It is not remotely moot. Noah (owennoah) posted some magnificent suggestions to a very serious endemic problem affecting millions of job seekers and hurting employer's ability to find good talent. But the reply to him is a vaguely victim blaming rant pointing out Michael's specific flaws based on subjective impressions of some things seen on the web. A pointless response is bad enough but a destructive one simply bog…

I apologize for that. I was trying to find other reasons that he might have finding a job other than his mental illness based on things he posted on his diaries and blogs on other websites.

There is also a factor of things found on Googling his name that are other than his mental illness essay.

I was posting those things to help him understand that there are other factors besides a mental illness that interviewers look at. I had hoped it would show how to over come that, and find a job. But I don't know of any solutions to it other than to get negative articles about him removed from the Internet, or create his own positive articles and SEO them over the bad articles. A reputation website might help with that.

Well all have flaws, sometimes we don't admit to them and don't learn from them and fix them. Many are in denial of them. Nobody is perfect, and in some cases you have to take a job using a technology you don't like to pay the bills because nothing else is available. I spent a decade with Windows and Visual BASIC, people laughed at Visual BASIC at the time, but I got paid money to develop in it. There are people who had ethics that Microsoft was corrupt so they refused to use Windows and Visual BASIC, but a lot of jobs at the time were for Microsoft IT shops. Those people who refused to use Microsoft tools due to ethics went without work. Some projects were short and didn't have a lasting value and some people refused to do them as well and went without work.

Myself I can learn almost any language or OS out there, I see them as tools and I don't hate one and love the others. I was able to find work because I wasn't picky about the tools or OS.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#63
post #37
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

> But you've suddenly become much more complicated and emotionally loaded than this other person who doesn't have cancer. You mean than this other person who might be lying to hide their cancer from you. Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness. Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed.

>>Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness.

>>Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed.

You've made this far more personal than it should or has to be. You've completely misunderstood my meaning and chosen to become very offended at something I did not actually say. Given that, there is no reason to lash out at me when I am simply trying to help him. If you disagree, just say that.

Now, I'm not a bigot. I genuinely care about his predicament. I've known many people personally who suffer from mental illnesses of varying types.

What I was explaining is a hypothetical scenario where someone discriminates subconsciously, not consciously. They see a person's candidacy for a job and their first association is with mental illness, not competency. This is a terrible first impression. My point is that the world is filled with what I call "grey-area" discrimination. It's people who are otherwise kind and caring but not self-aware enough to stop themselves from discriminating when a subconscious impulse arises in the face of something they don't want to deal with.

Now, elsewhere in this thread Michael explained that it is more important for him to take a stand than to have a job. That's fine! I fully support him. As long as he understands the impression he is making in interviews and job applications, I applaud him for being so committed to social change. My purpose was only to help him understand that what he is doing is tactlessly honest, if one wants to apply for a job. It appeared to me from his parent comment that his primary goal was getting a job, not taking a social stance, so I wanted to give frank advice.

We all embellish who are to inspire confidence in others. On a date you will talk yourself up. On a job interview you will talk yourself up. Relaying a story to your friends, you will talk yourself up. Michael is doing the extreme opposite of that, and I wanted him to be aware of it because it was not the first time I had seen him complaining. But I fully understand his decision, in light of his explanation.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#64
post #19

It would be very helpful not only to me, but to people like me, were potential employers to comply with the labor laws. Specifically, the various state laws regarding age discrimination - in Oregon, one may not discriminate for reasons of age against people over forty. There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at…

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

"When I was asked to make this address I wondered what I had to say to you boys who are graduating. And I think I have one thing to say. If you wish to be useful, never take a course that will silence you. Refuse to learn anything that implies collusion, whether it be a clerkship or a curacy, a legal fee or a post in a university. Retain the power of speech no matter what other power you may lose. If you can take this course, and in so far as you take it, you will bless this country. In so far as you depart from this course, you become dampers, mutes, and hooded executioners.

As a practical matter, a mere failure to speak out upon occassions where no statement is asked or expect from you, and when the utterance of an uncalled for suspicion is odious, will often hold you to a concurrence in palpable iniquity. Try to raise a voice that will be heard from here to Albany and watch what comes forward to shut off the sound. It is not a German sergeant, nor a Russian officer of the precinct. It is a note from a friend of your father's, offering you a place at his office. This is your warning from the secret police. Why, if you any of young gentleman have a mind to make himself heard a mile off, you must make a bonfire of your reputations, and a close enemy of most men who would wish you well.

I have seen ten years of young men who rush out into the world with their messages, and when they find how deaf the world is, they think they must save their strength and wait. They believe that after a while they will be able to get up on some little eminence from which they can make themselves heard. "In a few years," reasons one of them, "I shall have gained a standing, and then I shall use my powers for good." Next year comes and with it a strange discovery. The man has lost his horizon of thought, his ambition has evaporated; he has nothing to say. I give you this one rule of conduct. Do what you will, but speak out always. Be shunned, be hated, be ridiculed, be scared, be in doubt, but don't be gagged. The time of trial is always. Now is the appointed time."

    John J. Chapman
    Commencement Address to the Graduating Class of Hobart College, 1900

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#65
post #63
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you've suddenly become much more complicated and emotionally loaded than this other person who doesn't have cancer. You mean than this other person who might be lying to hide their cancer from you. Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness. Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed.

>>Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness. >>Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed. You've made this far more personal than it should or has to be. You've completely misunderstood my meaning and chosen to become very offended at something I did not actually say. Given that, there is…

Thank You.

What is particularly upsetting to me, is that those who seek work, are expected not to take stands.

Consider that I am - indirectly - related to Roger Sherman. On the back of the US $2.00 bill is John Trumbull's "Declaration of Independence". The original painting is in a very dimly lit room in the US Capitol building.

Uncle Roger is fourth from the right, the tall guy with the tall forehead.

All of the founding fathers who signed the Declaration of Independence risked their lives by doing so. This led to their having a handwriting contest; John Hancock got to sign first, because he had the boldest, clearest handwriting.

While commonly regarded as tragic that soliders, sailors, aviators, policemen and firemen give their lives for what they believe in, I am commonly told that it is wrong for computer programmers to live their lives conscientiously, rather than by working towards their employer's next quarterly report.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#66
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not want to work for ignorant bigots, and self-identifying is a way to filter out employers who are ignorant and happy to break federal law.

This is a fair point too, at least in as much as job seekers should be screening employers for a variety of things. Not enough job seekers do that. They just say whatever they think will make the employer happy.

In recent years I've come up with a few ways to screen potential employers.

One good way, before interviewing if possible, is to travel to the office during the time of day that you expect to arrive, were you to take the job. For most people that would be morning rush hour, but I commonly work at night.

As well, travel from the office to home - or perhaps to the general neighborhood where you expect to relocate - at the time you expect to get off work.

When you interview, ask the hiring manager whether he knows where you would be likely to sit, where you to hire on. In the case of my work at microsoft, that one question would have led to my turning down the contract. I was expecting an office with a door I could shut, but because I was a contractor, on my first morning I was told I'd have to sit in - I Swear I'm Not Making This Up - "The Boiler Room".

If they have a lunchroom, ask to see it. Extra credit if you can actually eat there.

I personally care quite a lot about what I can before and after work, and during my lunch hour in the general neighborhood of where I work. Some people don't care but I do - if there aren't any cafes in the area, I don't pursue it. That precludes quite a lot of otherwise good jobs that are in the middle of huge industrial parks.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#67
post #63
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you've suddenly become much more complicated and emotionally loaded than this other person who doesn't have cancer. You mean than this other person who might be lying to hide their cancer from you. Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness. Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed.

>>Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness. >>Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed. You've made this far more personal than it should or has to be. You've completely misunderstood my meaning and chosen to become very offended at something I did not actually say. Given that, there is…

Perhaps I should have been more clear: I don't regard being mentally ill as a predicament.

What I regard as a predicament, is that I am unable to find paying work.

It is particularly upsetting to me that my many skills are going to waste. I see so many young people making so many mistakes - just look at the prevalence of negative iOS App reviews in the iTunes Store.

There is so much that I could teach those who are just starting out. Not to make the mistakes I once made, as well as how to do the things that I've learned since.

To use assertions before you use debuggers for instance. While well-documented, such a practice is not well-understood.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no lawyer but these issues usually fall under "fit"-- which is legal. If there's an email floating around saying, "I think this guy has a mental disorder" and they get sued, yeah there's a case. But it usually never gets that far.

True I studied employment law, you have to prove that they discriminated against you. Record the meeting and find them saying they can't hire you due to a mental illness, or subpoena their email and hope they wrote they won't hire you due to a mental illness. If you don't have this evidence, no lawyer will take your case, and the EEOC won't support you. They could just write down "overqualified" or "lacking social sk…

obtaining the evidence is NOT your job. It is your lawyer's job, during the deposition.

If one tells a lie when being deposed, it is perjury.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True I studied employment law, you have to prove that they discriminated against you. Record the meeting and find them saying they can't hire you due to a mental illness, or subpoena their email and hope they wrote they won't hire you due to a mental illness. If you don't have this evidence, no lawyer will take your case, and the EEOC won't support you. They could just write down "overqualified" or "lacking social sk…

obtaining the evidence is NOT your job. It is your lawyer's job, during the deposition. If one tells a lie when being deposed, it is perjury.

A lawyer won't even take the case unless it is able to be proven that you were discriminated against.

You assume the interviewer will tell the truth in court, he/she will lie and make up a different reason why they didn't hire you to avoid being fired or covering things up.

You almost have to record them saying it, or having a letter or email where they say it. It is really hard to prove. It comes down to your word against theirs.

They aren't stupid enough to write down "This guy has a mental illness I refuse to hire him" they will make up other reasons to cover up the fact that they don't want to hire a mentally ill person.

I've been through this many times, filed with the EEOC, talked to lawyers, ended up on disability because I couldn't get a job. They never say they rejected you because you are mentally ill. Always "not a good fit", "overqualified", "not a team player", "lack of social skills", whatever they decide to write down even if it is not true.

Lawyers would not take the case because it was hard to prove.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Michael from other parts of the Internet. He tends to write essays and blogs on all sorts of things. He is very picky about what company he will work for, for example he doesn't like Amazon's labor rules so he refuses to work for Amazon or any company with labor rules just like them. He doesn't want to work with Windows, instead he focuses on Linux and Mac OSX. He has Java skills, and lists them on his resume,…

I won't do work that I regard as being unethical, nor will I seek work that I regard as not being of lasting value. I'm OK with any other kind of work. I have a wide variety of experience, and am quick to learn.

I've read your ethical engineer essay. Your ethics seem to be from the 1960's. In the Startup Community they are completely different and part of hacker culture founded in the 1990's and quickly changes based on the youth and founders.

I myself had to learn to adapt to these new age ethics by Paul Graham and others. Most of the industry goes by these modern ethics from Dotcom giants to the small startups.

They can tell you aren't a good fit just by the interview when you reveal your 1960's code of ethics.

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