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Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

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Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#31
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Michael from other parts of the Internet. He tends to write essays and blogs on all sorts of things. He is very picky about what company he will work for, for example he doesn't like Amazon's labor rules so he refuses to work for Amazon or any company with labor rules just like them. He doesn't want to work with Windows, instead he focuses on Linux and Mac OSX. He has Java skills, and lists them on his resume,…

If you are right, then his point about discriminating is moot. Seems more like he can't find a job he wants, and dismiss others that would be happy to hire him. I can say: "I want to work in Haskel, making games for the Wii U, from home, for 3 hours a day only". No matter what my experience, I won't be hired anytime soon.

It is not remotely moot.

Noah (owennoah) posted some magnificent suggestions to a very serious endemic problem affecting millions of job seekers and hurting employer's ability to find good talent. But the reply to him is a vaguely victim blaming rant pointing out Michael's specific flaws based on subjective impressions of some things seen on the web.

A pointless response is bad enough but a destructive one simply boggles the mind.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am disabled and mentally ill... I didn't used to be this way and developed it from a lot of stress while working. I vaguely understand that workplace stress can be debilitating, but I don't have a clear understanding of this issue. Would you mind shedding a bit of light on your story?

Sure I worked for a law firm for four and a half years. I received pay raises and promotions and had a very good salary. I worked in a team, and debugged Visual BASIC code and ASP VBScript code. Problem was I was picked on and bullied by some members of management and some coworkers and I didn't know why. The work kept piling on, more programs to debug. It used to take months to debug a program to get it right with q…

@orionblastar

As mchaver suggested, if you do want to look for remote work, I have a list of sites that can be of help :

https://weworkremotely.com/ http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs?allowsremote=true http://www.authenticjobs.com/ https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring https://remoteok.io http://www.workingnomads.co/jobs http://jobmote.com/ http://dice.com http://authenticjobs.com http://www.reddit.com/r/forhire http://wfh.io

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#33
post #19

It would be very helpful not only to me, but to people like me, were potential employers to comply with the labor laws. Specifically, the various state laws regarding age discrimination - in Oregon, one may not discriminate for reasons of age against people over forty. There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at…

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

Your advice would surely help him and every one who reads it find a job. And if everyone did it, there would not be anyone on the web who posted about even minor treatable mental issues such as depression. Many, maybe millions, who might be helped by that wouldn't be. After all, each such post easily reaches thousands who have not found treatment yet.

It might also be wise for job seeks over 35 to dye their hair or beards, for women to use gender obscuring name choices, for Jewish people to hide their religion and gays to hide that fact. Not only will this not solve any problems it will make a much worse future world.

So while individuals may solve their particular problems by simply giving in to a broken system (I myself am posting here semi anonymously after all), it sure makes things worse in the long run and impossibly harder on people who can't hide these things (eg race).

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dylan, Noah here from the article. Let's put Michael's specific situation aside for a moment. The truth is, neither of us knows WHY he isn't finding work. We each might have our own inklings as to why but there are surely some causation/correlation flaws we have no insight into. (And I will get to this) So let's take him out of the equation and create a fictional person having a hard time finding work-- call him Bob.…

I know Michael from other parts of the Internet. He tends to write essays and blogs on all sorts of things. He is very picky about what company he will work for, for example he doesn't like Amazon's labor rules so he refuses to work for Amazon or any company with labor rules just like them. He doesn't want to work with Windows, instead he focuses on Linux and Mac OSX. He has Java skills, and lists them on his resume,…

I was curious how "discrimination" is defined, at least in the dictionary. It is: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things.

If someone is mentally ill such that it's obvious to folks around them, and they communicate poorly compared to another candidate who is in other ways equal, then is it discrimination not to hire them? (not saying this description applies to anyone here; I'm just asking a hypothetical to get a sense of what's meant by discrimination)

If you interview a person and say to yourself, "This guy is kind of strange. I'm not sure he'll pick up on social cues, so he might make people in the office uncomfortable. Sometimes he doesn't communicate well. He can't explain what he's thinking, and his words are a jumble. I'm not sure he could publicly speak, like give a presentation, and I sure wouldn't want him to represent my company to customers." Is it discrimination to pass and choose another candidate who is comparable in other ways, and not hindered in those communication and interpersonal ways?

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure I worked for a law firm for four and a half years. I received pay raises and promotions and had a very good salary. I worked in a team, and debugged Visual BASIC code and ASP VBScript code. Problem was I was picked on and bullied by some members of management and some coworkers and I didn't know why. The work kept piling on, more programs to debug. It used to take months to debug a program to get it right with q…

@orionblastar As mchaver suggested, if you do want to look for remote work, I have a list of sites that can be of help : https://weworkremotely.com/ http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs?allowsremote=true http://www.authenticjobs.com/ https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring https://remoteok.io http://www.workingnomads.co/jobs http://jobmote.com/ http://dice.com http://authenticjobs.com http://www.reddit…

and http://remoteworknewsletter.com

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#36
post #19

It would be very helpful not only to me, but to people like me, were potential employers to comply with the labor laws. Specifically, the various state laws regarding age discrimination - in Oregon, one may not discriminate for reasons of age against people over forty. There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at…

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

As I see it, the more people do this, the less discrimination will be acceptable. No, I wouldn't ever personally advise someone to behave this way if they were seeking to further their career. However, if I were to advise humanity in general, I would suggest that we need everyone with such conditions to start doing it in order to force change.

It's nearly the same thing as racial discrimination, except that it's based on something unseen. Rosa Parks didn't move civil rights forward by avoiding the negative consequences of acting how she believed she should. Sometimes the only way to get closer to that idealized world we'd all like to see is by acting like we're already there. Money isn't everything.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#37
post #19

It would be very helpful not only to me, but to people like me, were potential employers to comply with the labor laws. Specifically, the various state laws regarding age discrimination - in Oregon, one may not discriminate for reasons of age against people over forty. There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at…

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

> But you've suddenly become much more complicated and emotionally loaded than this other person who doesn't have cancer.

You mean than this other person who might be lying to hide their cancer from you.

Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness.

Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#38
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ADA is intended to protect people who self-identify. If some chooses not to hire me because they see my essays at the top of my online resume, then they are violating Federal Law.

Did you see the parent poster's question? I'm curious too, why you do the linking on your site, when you seem to be looking for work, and you suspect it's preventing you from getting it?

I would not want to work for ignorant bigots, and self-identifying is a way to filter out employers who are ignorant and happy to break federal law.

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#39
post #37
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There is also the US Americans with Disabilities Act. I am dead certain that I lose work because I link to two essays about my mental illness right at the top of every page of my website. With respect, why do you do this? How can you possibly think this is a good idea? I sympathize that you have a mental illness, but you're being stubborn by complaining that you can't get a job when one of the primary obstacles is…

> But you've suddenly become much more complicated and emotionally loaded than this other person who doesn't have cancer. You mean than this other person who might be lying to hide their cancer from you. Your bigotry has made you say that you would prefer dishonest liars to people who are honest but with a mental illness. Don't you see how utterly fucked that attitude is? It's disgusting and you should feel ashamed.

I totally agree with your comment. Is it sad that I've grown to accept the world as it is?

Re: Helping the People Who Don’t Get Hired

#40
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are right, then his point about discriminating is moot. Seems more like he can't find a job he wants, and dismiss others that would be happy to hire him. I can say: "I want to work in Haskel, making games for the Wii U, from home, for 3 hours a day only". No matter what my experience, I won't be hired anytime soon.

It is not remotely moot. Noah (owennoah) posted some magnificent suggestions to a very serious endemic problem affecting millions of job seekers and hurting employer's ability to find good talent. But the reply to him is a vaguely victim blaming rant pointing out Michael's specific flaws based on subjective impressions of some things seen on the web. A pointless response is bad enough but a destructive one simply bog…

You are both right though. 1) Discrimination is real and should be discouraged and may indeed have affected Michael's chances at finding work but ferreting out discrimination and fixing its isn't a great use of an individual job seekers' time when so many other people can use good workers but 2) if the points about his choosiness are true-- and I don't know if they are-- they would probably affect things as well in a way he is refusing to acknowledge. But again, I don't know Michael so I want to move away from that. Because a larger point can be made here: this would be an example of how MANY people have blinders to their own reasons they aren't finding work-- and certainly not only people who blog about their personal problems.

I get this all the time. Every excuse in the book and then I ask: "Did you follow up?" "No." "Did you send a physical letter or make a physical cold call, or even a telephone phone call-- something to break through the noise?" "No." And then I prod them to do those things and they don't. An unfortunate part about the job search is that its a sales process and many people don't require sales skills to do many jobs yet suddenly we expect them to sprout sales skills like wings when suddenly its time to look for work, often when they are at their most vulnerable moment-- the time they NEED that job. It's a cruel farce. But there are ways around it.

That's why I talk about exploding toilets-- a lot of companies just need the work done. Ask any sleazy late-night locksmith if he works on his sales skills. No, he has the tool you need when you are locked out of your apartment at 3am. You want him or not? Fortunately or unfortunately, there are enough exploding toilets out there that job seekers who really want to fix problems don't have to worry too much about navigating the job search as a sale-- they just have to get some attention. But in order to get attention, they need to want to get it and that's often a bigger problem than you know b/c most people don't want to fail or risk looking ridiculous, as if these people they are contacting will even remember them-- and then they create excuses for why they can't and often blame others.

But again, back to the original point: the reason we think is the problem often isn't so trying to deconstruct it is pointless. It's like dating. If someone isn't a match, move on. Someone out there wants you desperately-- but only if you want to help them and can.

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