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Chile is introducing free higher education

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Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#151
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be interesting to know the impact this has in the country. Do you know if Argentina has better equality and social mobility because of this? Or if the economy does better as a result? Are there private universities in Argentina? What percentage of the population go to college? and out of those who do, what percentage goes to public/free universities? How does the quality of education at those schools compare…

Yes, there are several private universities in Argentina. While some of them have a very good level, some are pretty much just a means to buy a diploma. That, and especially the fact that they are much older, is why some of the public ones are much more respected (UBA - Universidad de Buenos Aires, UTN - Universidad Tecnologica Nacional - Universidad Nacional de Cordoba) than the private ones. The main problem with p…

Depends on the degree though: Medicine at UBA is a disaster, and other subjects like Accounting and Law don't have much prestige(maybe because it doesn't matter to those degrees).

UBA has its own problems with budget managing, building decay and internal governability issues. Not to mention that is not only free for Argentinians, but free for anyone, which presents extra strains on its budget.

Im all up for free college education tho, it would change the landscape in the US forever if colleges were non-profit oriented.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#152
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary thing inhibiting vertical social mobility in Chile is cultural.[1] I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) The only reason poor people would have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids is if government made education illegal. Even po…

Chile is corrupt from top to bottom. It's true that you can't bribe the cops, and Chileans are very proud of this (primarily because you can bribe the cops in Argentina), but access to opportunity in Chile is almost 100% dependent on who you know. The entire business class has raised nepotism to an art form. While free university education sounds good, even going to a top-ranked school like Universidad de Chile isn't…

So it's the same as in, for example, the United States or Sweden.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#154
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, my bad. Actual average salary is USD 10k/year. Also notice the USD 5k/year is tuition for an engineering degree (2nd most expensive - only to med school) at the best universities, so it's pretty much one of the most expensive degrees you can get in Chile. Also, it is really easy to get a low-interest student loan (which a lot of people don't even pay). My guess is that access to education in Australia…

Access to education in Australia is definitely better - for most courses entry is egalitarian - students are ranked and preferences orders determine what courses you get offered (it's very different to the US system - you nominate the course you want to take, BS, BA, including the major area and while you can transfer later, relatively few do). Obviously art and music courses often have an audition requirement, and e…

There's no longer a discount for paying fees up front: http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/news/pages/chang...

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#155
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On point 1) if the average salary in Chile is less than $5k/year then it costs more than a years salary to pay for a years schooling. That is incredibly expensive. By contrast in Australia it's around $10-12k/year for a local and the average full time wage is $75k/year! If Chilean education was as cheap as Australia's then a good education would cost less than $1k/year.

You are right, my bad. Actual average salary is USD 10k/year. Also notice the USD 5k/year is tuition for an engineering degree (2nd most expensive - only to med school) at the best universities, so it's pretty much one of the most expensive degrees you can get in Chile. Also, it is really easy to get a low-interest student loan (which a lot of people don't even pay). My guess is that access to education in Australia…

For the record:

According to NESI 2013

Working population salaries in Chile, according to NEST 2013 (http://www.fundacionsol.cl/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Verdad...): * 2k/year or less: 13,8% * 2k-3k/year: 5,2 % * 3k-4,2k/year: 14,1% * 4,2k-6k/year: 20,5 %

53,5% of working population get less than 5k/year.

These are the rates of universidad de chile, the principal state sponsored university in chile year 2015 (http://www.uchile.cl/portal/admision-y-matriculas/aranceles-...):

Medicine? 8k/year Architecture? 5,6k/year Biochemistry? 5.8k/year

I don't know if chilean education is the most expensive in the world. I just know the data delivered in these comments is wrong.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#156
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Peru, next door (give or take a few thousand miles), and completely agree with you w.r.t. Chile being very start-up and generally business-friendly, which does indeed involve government staying out of wealth creators' way, and setting up a couple of programs like Startup Chile. Setting up a new company in Chile can be done in a couple of days now, and much of it online. Peru is following in Chile's footstep…

That radical reform in the 1990s - was it down to Fujimori? I thought he was corrupt. Would be interested to hear your opinion.

Would love to hear some thoughts on that too. I remember watching quite a while ago some really fascinating documentary movie on Fujimori. Really interesting situation, e.g. highly corrupt but without the public questioning their support of him.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#157
I am Chilean. This year I came to live to Bay Area and now I work in a Startup.

There are several misconceptions and thoughts that I want to express.

1. Getting a 'low tax student loan in Chile is easy'

That's BS. If you're in a good 'public' University, it applies. You can get -more or less from the Government- (which behind the camera acts as an intermediare with a Bank) what we call "Crédito Universitario". That is indeed low tax. However, most of Chileans don't go to the top 'Public Schools', it's hard to get in because you have to do well in what we have as a Standardized Test to apply for the University called PSU (University Selection Test). Most of the people in Chile end-up going to private Schools and to get a loan -as far as I know- you have to go directly to a Bank, and believe me, it's not low tax. I've know people having to pay up to 50% more than what their studies costed.

2. There's no class mobility in Chile.

This is true. It's virtually non-existent. The reasons are quite complex, but let me elaborate on one of the factors.

The Universitary Selection Test is a test much like SAT. There's Math, Language, Sciences (including social sciences), etc. When you apply to a university your presentation score is calculated from a ponderation between those tests and high school grades (9th-12th grade). In my case for example, for my Engineering School, it was something like 50% math test, 25% school, 25% Language test.

Since the School education in Chile is incredibly segregated, and there's only some decent schools, guess who are the majority of people who are doing well at this test? Yep, you guessed right, people that come from wealthier families that could afford to put their children in, more expensive and better quality schools.

That people is who get the best scores at PSU, fill up most of the capacity of the top Universities high-paying degrees.

And this is why in Chile, the best careers in the best universities are full of people who are already in a very strong economic position (and from more or less higher class strata). Yes, you will see some very smart guys with a University Credit here and there studying Medicine/Engineering in the top Universities, but they are more in the exceptional spectrum.

3. It's so bad that there's a market for studying for the PSU.

To take on this opportunity, in Chile we have private 'pre-universitarios' which are basically institutes that can charge even 4k a year, to better prepare you for PSU. People often go to them to improve their scores on their last year of School (after school)... again, guess who can pay them?

Personal Opinion:

We need a good educational reform in Chile. Sadly, the actual government is the worst we've had at executing on anything specific in a long time. They tried tackling a lot of very difficult challenges at the same time, and from what I've seen they have failed miserably.

The educational reform that will come out of this, will, most probably, be very watered down. People should pay, what they can pay for their education, that would fix part of the problems that the article correctly linked with the dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet. My father was born low-class and at his time, he could afford an education in a top university (costed him 0, then he had to work in the public sector to pay the state for his education). This is a reality, that simply doesn't exist anymore, at least not like in pre dictatorship.

But remember that this is not only a money problem, even if it's free... the PSU is still there acting as a filter, and without excellent and cheaper public schools things are not going to get incredibly better.

PS: For the ones suggesting that free internet and e-learning as a possible fix, I won't enter that debate but no, I don't think that can fix for any of this issues in Chile.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#158
post #41

I'd like to add that right now an even more important discussion in Chile is about the quality of higher education. After the educational laws were modified in the 1980s in order to allow the existence of private universities and technical institutes, many for-profit institutions appeared, even though educational profit is forbidden (institutes found obscure ways to achieve this). A direct consequence of those for-pr…

It doesn't really make sense to forbid profit in education (at least the way the Chilean government does it). The best universities in the world make a lot of money (e.g. Harvard, MIT, Stanford). Opening the educational market should create competition and drive quality up. Of course the market should be regulated, but forbidding profit is not really the way to go.

You are not very smart sir.

Stanford, MIT, they re-invest their utilities in their infrastructure. And that, is allowed in Chile.

You can have a private Universtiy, but to be a real Universtiy, the money should be re-invested in the institution. (That's the ideal)

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#159

In Brazil, such experience was just terrible. Although public universities are the best in the country, secondary education is terrible and most of their students don't go to college. As most public universities are very selective, most of their students went to private schools and are richer than average.

Your third point is the current case in Chile, but you still have to pay to study in those "public" Universities (U. Chile, U. Católica, U of Santiago, Concepción, etc.)

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#160
post #36

Many problems with the article: 1) There's no way Chilean education is the most expensive in the world. Tuition for an engineering degree at the best universities in Chile is around USD 5k/year, which is way cheaper than pretty much any university in the US. (edit: in fact here's a ranking, and Chile is not even mentioned on it http://www.businessinsider.com/hsbc-australia-is-the-most-ex... ) 2) The tax hike was a bu…

Tuition for an engineering degree at the best universities in Chile is not 5k/year but closer to 7k/year. PUC is $9355, UChile is $7964, Santa Maria is $6456, USACH is $6388, U. Concepción is between $5200 and $7000 depending on the type of engineering.

It does not sound like a lot compared to the tuitions in Ivy League schools but is a lot considering average income. It is also important to remember that we are not talking about full cost of attendance but only tuition and fees. I took a look at the tuition and fees in undergraduate engineering programs in the US, Berkeley is $13,878, Caltech is $44,000 (however 91% get financial aid), Stanford $14,728, MIT is $23,200 (30% go tuition free, 56% get need-based scholarships), Carnegie Mellon is $49,610, Georgia Tech is $32,000.

Using the Household net adjusted disposable income reported by the OECD the average US household would be 2.8 times richer than a Chilean one. Given that it doesn't look that it is more expensive than the US, I agree that Chile is not the most expensive but most likely among the most expensive. On another hand, given the particular income distribution in Chile using the average salary might give a wrong idea about how affordable is higher education.

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