Chile is introducing free higher education • Hacker News Board

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#101

Post by eli_gottlieb » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:19 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #64

wordbank wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, but you're too fast on making conclusions. Also you're totally ignoring the lack of vertical social mobility in the Chilean society because poor people have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids. > It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. This statement is too generalized. But even if it's correct then you can't pinpoint it to education. There's a…

The primary thing inhibiting vertical social mobility in Chile is cultural.[1] I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) The only reason poor people would have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids is if government made education illegal. Even po…

> I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.)

Far be it from me to label large companies a good thing, but people need some amount of stability in their lives to be able to plan any kind of personal projects. In the capitalist and corporatist societies, people are told to get this stability by working as a salaried employee for a very large firm.

If you want people to become entrepreneurs or something like that, you have to offer them a way to do so that doesn't involve risking their ability to eat, keep a roof over their head, and buy medicine for their ageing parents.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#102

Post by adventured » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:20 AM UTC

dethstar wrote: post #92

MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

Is higher education public in America? What's with all I'm hearing about student loans then? It seems that without that, your whole argument falls apart.

The student loan problem in the US didn't exist 15 years ago. It is a big problem now, all due to the US Government perpetually backing higher loan amounts. Student loan debt has increased by about eight fold in that time. About 13% of Americans have student loans, and only about 3-4% of Americans have problematic student loans.

The median student loan debt is less than the cost of a cheap car: $13,700.

Between, say, ~1940 and 2000 the US had both the best university system on earth and it was affordable.

There are still a lot of public universities in the US that are extremely affordable to go to.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#103

Post by contingencies » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:20 AM UTC

bcheung wrote: post #30

The Internet introduced free higher education a long time ago. ;)

It's a shame your good point was downvoted.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#104

Post by simpleblend » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:21 AM UTC

No matter what Governments try to tell you, nothing is this world is free -- especially education.

There's a general rule in Economics that says whatever the government touches turns to shit. Even if you think that the higher education will be "free", it'll be completely inferior compared to free-market education. In addition, you now have to combat against Socialist propaganda on a daily basis.

It's time for humanity to learn how to solve social problems without a gun to the head.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#105

Post by guelo » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:21 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

Nice libertarian fantasy rant but Chile ranks way below the US in most education measures. For example 8th grade science 525 vs 461: http://nces.ed.gov/timss/table11_5.asp

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#106

Post by contingencies » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:22 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #52

xname wrote: post #38

Is it fair to people who do not go to college?

Yes, it's fair. Just like a lot of public works and services are funded by taxes even if you in particular don't use them. More importantly, fairness is a trade-off. Granting free universal access to certain things benefits the poor and those with lower incomes, even if it's not particularly beneficial for people with higher incomes. That's a good trade-off in my opinion, and in the opinion of progressive governments…

Icing on the cake: by offering something universally you remove a layer of bureaucracy and hassle that someone was paying for anyway.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#107

Post by nmrm2 » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:24 AM UTC

nico wrote: post #41

rpalmaotero wrote: post #33

I'd like to add that right now an even more important discussion in Chile is about the quality of higher education. After the educational laws were modified in the 1980s in order to allow the existence of private universities and technical institutes, many for-profit institutions appeared, even though educational profit is forbidden (institutes found obscure ways to achieve this). A direct consequence of those for-pr…

It doesn't really make sense to forbid profit in education (at least the way the Chilean government does it). The best universities in the world make a lot of money (e.g. Harvard, MIT, Stanford). Opening the educational market should create competition and drive quality up. Of course the market should be regulated, but forbidding profit is not really the way to go.

There's a fundamental mismatch between the claim you're making and the evidence you're presenting in support of that claim.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#108

Post by galfarragem » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:24 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #71

anigbrowl wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have government-sponsored higher ed in many Eurozone countries and I think they do quite a good job at turning out critical independent thinkers. Using the US as your only point of comparison seems somewhat misleading to me - I'm a good bit to the left of you and I also think a lot of US public education is a shambles. However, I think there are multiple complex reasons for that and it's not as simple as 'public f…

Oh, I'd never say there aren't lots of factors. As another person pointed out, culture is a factor too. The US seems to have been in a cultural decline for much of the last 100 years. You can't make direct comparisons, absolutely. But, you can make an argument about incentives and that's what I'm doing. When government is in control you have no choice. You are forced to pay for it and you get what they decide you get…

Socialism is the root of some evils.

By the other hand, education is probably the best thing in socialism. I'm from Southwest Europe and I know some russians living here that sent their kids to study in their home country, Russia. They say that subjects for 9th grade here, are learned during 6th in Russia. Is very common in my country that kids from Eastern Europe that still made some schooling there are the best students in their class/school.

Making a fast analysis, historically, US colleges are/were full of professors from communist countries..

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#109

Post by molmalo » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:25 AM UTC

nico wrote: post #68

lfottaviano wrote: post #60

Here in Argentina, We have since 1821 the University of Buenos Aires, free of charge. There are many public and free of charge universities across the country. Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Buenos_Aires

It would be interesting to know the impact this has in the country. Do you know if Argentina has better equality and social mobility because of this? Or if the economy does better as a result? Are there private universities in Argentina? What percentage of the population go to college? and out of those who do, what percentage goes to public/free universities? How does the quality of education at those schools compare…

Yes, there are several private universities in Argentina. While some of them have a very good level, some are pretty much just a means to buy a diploma. That, and especially the fact that they are much older, is why some of the public ones are much more respected (UBA - Universidad de Buenos Aires, UTN - Universidad Tecnologica Nacional - Universidad Nacional de Cordoba) than the private ones.

The main problem with public and free higher education is that at least the first two years, there are A LOT of people assisting who will eventually drop out.

And students coming from poorer families are the most vulnerable, and tend to drop out in a much higher percentage, some of the reasons being: - they have to work to help their families. - they have children at a younger age. - lack the money to take the bus or train everyday (no campus to live in). - they lack of a solid high school education. In the end, only the ones who can persist and really have the will to finish their studies will get the diploma. But if they can get it, they will surely have a much better life (economically speaking) than their parents.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#110

Post by wordbank » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:25 AM UTC

nico wrote: post #59

wordbank wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the most expensive compared to the average salary in the country. In response to your other points: Chilean government fails a lot and the president has 25% rating. So at least they're trying to reset the government. Also you're looking at "virtual" education from NA/EU perspective but Chile is digitized very poorly compared to "on the edge" countries. Online services are like 2001-2003 US ones.

It's the most expensive compared to the average salary in the country. Source please. Chilean government fails a lot and the president has 25% rating Exactly! so most likely the whole thing will fail before it even begins. Chile is digitized very poorly compared to "on the edge" countries Completely agree. So why not start with free Internet access for everyone instead (which should be way cheaper), and then negotiat…

http://wenr.wes.org/2013/12/introduction-to-the-higher-educa...

"Chilean universities are among the most expensive in the world when measured against per capita income, which is no doubt a factor in the nation’s high dropout rate. It is estimated that Chilean families pay more than 75 percent of the costs associated with higher education, compared to 40 percent in the United States and just 5 percent on average in Scandinavian countries."