Chile is introducing free higher education • Hacker News Board

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#121

Post by FireBeyond » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:55 AM UTC

nico wrote: post #87

sheepmullet wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On point 1) if the average salary in Chile is less than $5k/year then it costs more than a years salary to pay for a years schooling. That is incredibly expensive. By contrast in Australia it's around $10-12k/year for a local and the average full time wage is $75k/year! If Chilean education was as cheap as Australia's then a good education would cost less than $1k/year.

You are right, my bad. Actual average salary is USD 10k/year. Also notice the USD 5k/year is tuition for an engineering degree (2nd most expensive - only to med school) at the best universities, so it's pretty much one of the most expensive degrees you can get in Chile. Also, it is really easy to get a low-interest student loan (which a lot of people don't even pay). My guess is that access to education in Australia…

Access to education in Australia is definitely better - for most courses entry is egalitarian - students are ranked and preferences orders determine what courses you get offered (it's very different to the US system - you nominate the course you want to take, BS, BA, including the major area and while you can transfer later, relatively few do). Obviously art and music courses often have an audition requirement, and exceptionally high demand or courses deemed to have a desire for 'suitable' people (without getting into a debate about that), such as medicine may also have an interview requirement.

However, the general philosophy is the Higher Education Contribution Scheme. This is a fee that is largely flat, only paid on graduation, as an increased income tax requirement (a few percent more), if and only if your salary is above a threshold. Drop below that and you're no longer paying on your HECS debt. However, you can also voluntarily opt to pre-pay your debt for varying discounts. When I went to school (mid 90s), this fee was $1800/year. Any course at any university, from liberal arts at a country college to medicine or law at the most prestigious of institutions.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#122

Post by the_af » Sat, May 09, 2015, 1:56 AM UTC

mason240 wrote: post #116

the_af wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's fair. Just like a lot of public works and services are funded by taxes even if you in particular don't use them. More importantly, fairness is a trade-off. Granting free universal access to certain things benefits the poor and those with lower incomes, even if it's not particularly beneficial for people with higher incomes. That's a good trade-off in my opinion, and in the opinion of progressive governments…

So no, it's not fair at then.

Read my reply to Daishiman. In the longer term, it's fair to them as well. And in any case, fairness is a relative term. It's fair to the country as a whole.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#123

Post by simpleblend » Sat, May 09, 2015, 2:28 AM UTC

germanier wrote: post #112

simpleblend wrote: post #104

No matter what Governments try to tell you, nothing is this world is free -- especially education. There's a general rule in Economics that says whatever the government touches turns to shit. Even if you think that the higher education will be "free", it'll be completely inferior compared to free-market education. In addition, you now have to combat against Socialist propaganda on a daily basis. It's time for humanit…

> No matter what Governments try to tell you, nothing is this world is free -- especially education. Education is a net-positive investment. That's the reason many people go to university at all. That means that you also will pay more taxes and effectively finance your education in the future. Note that this is no different to government-sponsered student loans, just without the indirection of loans. > There's a gene…

The idea that education is a net-positive investment is completely wrong. Could it be for certain people? Absolutely. Is it for a lot of people? Ask the English majors in the States bar-tending full-time.

Education can be a great thing for certain people. However The idea that everyone should go to college is totalitarian in ideology. You're trying to mold society to what you "think" it should be.

Publicly funded entities by definition cannot compete since the profit loss mechanism doesn't exist. Governments can try to artificially "recreate" the free-market by passing laws, but at the end of the day favoritism exists. It's akin to the mafia allowing the different family bosses to compete for cities -- ultimately there is no competition.

The decision to take on student loan debt is completely voluntarily. Comparing that to a gun to the head is ridiculous. You know what is a fair comparison though? Governments forcing their subjects to pay for other people's student loan debt.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#124

Post by vpeters25 » Sat, May 09, 2015, 2:31 AM UTC

I think the article's author got lost in translation: the word "colegio" stands for school, not college.

From what I understand by reading the official government bullet points about this law (http://reformaeducacional.gob.cl), it:

- dissolves all charter schools making them public schools with free admission.

- private schools must reform as non-profits

- forbids any school, private or otherwise, from filtering students with admission tests.

Free college education was a campaign promise by Bachelet's administration but it was not included on this law.

Edit: grammar and formatting

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#125

Post by MCRed » Sat, May 09, 2015, 3:10 AM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #81

MCRed wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary thing inhibiting vertical social mobility in Chile is cultural.[1] I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) The only reason poor people would have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids is if government made education illegal. Even po…

Chile is corrupt from top to bottom. It's true that you can't bribe the cops, and Chileans are very proud of this (primarily because you can bribe the cops in Argentina), but access to opportunity in Chile is almost 100% dependent on who you know. The entire business class has raised nepotism to an art form. While free university education sounds good, even going to a top-ranked school like Universidad de Chile isn't…

This wasn't my experience. I got into Startup Chile knowing nobody in chile. Many of the other teams there were south americans from a variety of countries, including chile. I really don't believe that last name was a factor in the selection process (Though I do believe being from south america gives you a leg up these days.)

After Startup Chile there were a variety of follow on funding programs, almost all of which I would have difficulty getting in, but that a chilean would have a much easier time getting in.

I knew chileans who were bootstrapping from nothing (who got none of the funding I got) and I knew chileans who were getting investments. The chilean government supports a thriving angel and VC system there which, as far as I can tell is much better than the one in Seattle, though maybe not as good as the bay area.

Sure it is probably more nepotistic-- in hiring-- but I don't believe that when it comes to startups. And all it takes is a few startups to be successful to create a system where more startups are started each year. And then more are successful and it feeds on itself.

Chile doesn't seem to have much regulation keeping businesses out... so really it's all about being willing to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, network with others and apply to the opportunities for help that are there-- which was pretty vibrant.

Of course it's all a matter of degrees.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#126

Post by MCRed » Sat, May 09, 2015, 3:11 AM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #101

MCRed wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary thing inhibiting vertical social mobility in Chile is cultural.[1] I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) The only reason poor people would have no chance for education and better jobs for their kids is if government made education illegal. Even po…

> I have worked with chilean high schoolers and college students and they have a lot of opportunity that they don't see because they are locked into a specific tract (namely work for a large company.) Far be it from me to label large companies a good thing, but people need some amount of stability in their lives to be able to plan any kind of personal projects. In the capitalist and corporatist societies, people are…

Startup Chile does that and the other programs that do it to greater or lesser degrees are multiplying like rabbits.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#127

Post by MCRed » Sat, May 09, 2015, 3:14 AM UTC

rospaya wrote: post #91

MCRed wrote: post #47

I lived in Chile for several years. I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First off, one of the things that makes Chile great is that its education system is independant of the government. It results in chileans who are markedly better at critical thinking than americans. (While there one of the things I did was work with high school and college students and of course got to know a lot of chileans.) Their s…

> Chile is the south american economic miracle as a result. Is miracle the right word? Their 4% growth is impressive, but GDP per capita is on par with Eastern European countries.

The one of those is velocity and one of those is present position.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#128

Post by illumen » Sat, May 09, 2015, 3:33 AM UTC

TTPrograms wrote: post #89

illumen wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this good for the poor people who can not afford it? Will it make a difference? Certainly. Will this result in a more highly skilled, and a more highly educated population? Yes. People should still be able to afford private schools if they can now. The American idea that you can't mix socialism and capitalism is absurd! (urg, just saying these words makes me feel like I'm using outdated old ideas from the 1800's!)…

Where exactly are you getting the figure that 45% of the USA is illiterate? Measured rates are closer to 1%. That kind of absurd exaggeration really discredits your point.

I meant functionally illiterate.

Reading level of US adults at a proficient level is only 13% http://www.statisticbrain.com/number-of-american-adults-who-...

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#129

Post by illumen » Sat, May 09, 2015, 3:38 AM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #85

illumen wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this good for the poor people who can not afford it? Will it make a difference? Certainly. Will this result in a more highly skilled, and a more highly educated population? Yes. People should still be able to afford private schools if they can now. The American idea that you can't mix socialism and capitalism is absurd! (urg, just saying these words makes me feel like I'm using outdated old ideas from the 1800's!)…

How will it make a difference? Say you're a poor Chilean and thanks to this new policy you get a free ride at Universidad de Chile or Católica, the two top universities in Chile. You're well educated, but you've got the wrong last name and no connections - who on earth is going to hire you for anything? Say you start a business. Who's going to give you capital? Who's going to even do business with you, when they've n…

You can make a lot of connections at university. Along with job offers. Along with special consideration from banks for graduates and even enrolled students.

Will a change be immediate? No. But I've seen the affects in other countries over 10 year period.

It's never a single thing which helps people in society. It's many things at once. Of course if the students need to work to support their families or even to feed themselves, then a free education is going to help far less people. But if those same students don't need to pay for their education, then many more will be able to do so.

Re: Chile is introducing free higher education

#130

Post by dataker » Sat, May 09, 2015, 3:42 AM UTC

In Brazil, such experience was just terrible.

Although public universities are the best in the country, secondary education is terrible and most of their students don't go to college.

As most public universities are very selective, most of their students went to private schools and are richer than average.