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Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

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Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#31

Post by ejstronge »

sp332 wrote: post #21
bkeroack wrote: post #12

It's only "insane" by myopic Western/American standards. Look at the martial arts of Japan (Judo, Jujitsu) where to earn a black belt--which is traditionally not the end of learning but merely symbolizes understanding of the basics--takes at least 10 years of dedicated study. Since martial arts began to be "Americanized" in the ~1980s, we now see black belts handed out to 8 year old children after a year or two of st…

It's insane because it covers a very narrow range of topics. We make people doctors after 8 years of study, only a few of which involve actual practice.

I'm not sure if you're referring to medical education in the United States.

If you are, individuals who ultimately care for patients must complete college (4 years), medical school (>4 years), and a residency program (3+ years).

Thus, training to be a physician in the US would require at least 11 years, of which at least five (the last five) would involve extensive patient contact.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#33

Post by rifung »

stephengillie wrote: post #27
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #9

Maybe I'm mistaken, but when I read stories of succesfull startups (aside from the usual startup porn), I keep hearing stories of people who didn't know . Sure, they had ideas, intuition, a deep intuition about where the market was -- but they didn't really know. So they tried experiments and learned. Then they did that some more. The constant refrain is intellectual humility and seeking to understand the people they…

When you don't know, the fastest way to learn is to find someone who does know, and ask them. If one sushi chef likes another chef's sushi, why doesn't the one just ask the other how to make it? Because of social reasons?

They probably do, but I also imagine that a lot of things just can't be taught and instead come from experience. For example, I used to train with an Olympic gold medalist in badminton, and he would tell me that the thing I really need to bring my playing to the next level is to be able to take risks and gamble by predicting what the opponent was going to do.

The theory made complete sense: you just need to be able to guess with hopefully high accuracy what they were going to do so that you could take advantage of it and it's fine because even if you are wrong sometimes you just still end up positive. Of course, the problem is you can't actually really assign probabilities to your guesses and you might have less than a second to decide what to do.

I imagine this is the same with making sushi. You might understand that if a fish is a certain way, you need to add more rice, or vice versa, but you can't just "measure" the fish and instead go off your intuition.

Honestly I don't know a thing about making sushi but the post described having to go off intuition, and it's just not something that can really be taught easily.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#34

Post by nqzero »

ejstronge wrote: post #31
sp332 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's insane because it covers a very narrow range of topics. We make people doctors after 8 years of study, only a few of which involve actual practice.

I'm not sure if you're referring to medical education in the United States. If you are, individuals who ultimately care for patients must complete college (4 years), medical school (>4 years), and a residency program (3+ years). Thus, training to be a physician in the US would require at least 11 years, of which at least five (the last five) would involve extensive patient contact.

technically, an undergrad degree isn't required, only a handful of courses

whether you'd actually get admitted without one is an exercise for the reader

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#35

Post by Red_Tarsius »

Puts wrote: post #32

Programming should be like this. When you're in your twenties thinking you know everything you should have have an old master slapping you on the writs telling you that even if you think you are - you actually are not ready building real systems yet. ;-)

Older programmers may not know the latest hip language and frameworks, but are closer to the essence of their craft. Past experiences open the mind to patterns and ways of doing the 20yo code monkey can't quite conceive yet.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#36

Post by jbhatab »

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #29
jbhatab wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. It's just a process. The people trying to say that it takes years are just glorifying old standards

Today people are still buying hand-made portrait paintings. They could easily spend x10 less and take a photo or hire a digital painter. However, they still choose the old, irrational way. The process itself is the value. The years spent mastering the little things is the sacrifice that makes it valuable to the costumer. In return, the chef follows the path to satori by sticking to his chosen kata , the way. Japanese…

I get what you are saying, and I'm just thinking about it from the perspective of a blind taste test because that's honestly all I care about. Others may love the experience of a person making it beautifully but I'm fine with a robot banging out high quality sushi for me.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#37

Post by jbhatab »

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #35
Puts wrote: post #32

Programming should be like this. When you're in your twenties thinking you know everything you should have have an old master slapping you on the writs telling you that even if you think you are - you actually are not ready building real systems yet. ;-)

Older programmers may not know the latest hip language and frameworks, but are closer to the essence of their craft. Past experiences open the mind to patterns and ways of doing the 20yo code monkey can't quite conceive yet.

And 20 year olds have a perspective of the world that older generations can't appreciate. Who's to say which has more value?

We shouldn't glorify youth or age, just quality.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#38

Post by kaeluka »

MrJagil wrote: post #14
redcups wrote: post #8

Semi-related: "Jiro Dreams of Sushi", a excelent 90minute documentary movie about "Jiro", an 85-year-old sushi master is available on YouTube w/ english subs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYN7p8dvr64 Great watch, even if you never had sushi or don't like sushi. The extreme drive for perfection is admirable.

Yes, it's an excellent film. Makes you yearn for sushi, though you quickly realize that whatever sushi is in your vicinity, is not what you're actually craving; it's a taste of Jiro's mastery. Apparently, Tampopo is in a similar vein (though fiction) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092048/?ref_=fn_al_tt_9

Tampopo is excellent. You must watch it. And I must watch it again.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#39

Post by diminoten2 »

bane wrote: post #19
ableal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling) , although it's not a verb, and would probably be rather weirded if verbed. (That page ends up referencing, among other things, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori , which may go well with sushi.)

I think Satori is translated into English as "understanding in fullness". 'Grok' has always seemed to mean to me something kind of like this, where no further epiphanies are possible.

Except grok simply means to comprehend/understand something to the level of competence.

I've never heard of anyone using grok to mean something along the lines of "mastery".

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