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Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

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Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#21

Post by sp332 »

bkeroack wrote: post #12

It's only "insane" by myopic Western/American standards. Look at the martial arts of Japan (Judo, Jujitsu) where to earn a black belt--which is traditionally not the end of learning but merely symbolizes understanding of the basics--takes at least 10 years of dedicated study. Since martial arts began to be "Americanized" in the ~1980s, we now see black belts handed out to 8 year old children after a year or two of st…

It's insane because it covers a very narrow range of topics. We make people doctors after 8 years of study, only a few of which involve actual practice.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#22

Post by csours »

imjk wrote: post #17

He explains things well generally, and then lists off a bunch of different examples, but I don't think we gets specific enough. For example, he says, "I think my nigiri is still far from perfect: could use improvement to reach the perfect fish and rice balance with firmness and texture." Why does this take years as opposed to taking standardized pieces of fish and testing by simply adding more or less rice to it. Why…

Probably because there is more than just nigiri on the menu... and there is more than one kind of fish, etc.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#23

Post by stephengillie »

bkeroack wrote: post #12

It's only "insane" by myopic Western/American standards. Look at the martial arts of Japan (Judo, Jujitsu) where to earn a black belt--which is traditionally not the end of learning but merely symbolizes understanding of the basics--takes at least 10 years of dedicated study. Since martial arts began to be "Americanized" in the ~1980s, we now see black belts handed out to 8 year old children after a year or two of st…

Instead of forcing a person thru a decade of trials in the dojo, and promoting those that manage to learn how to pass the trials one way or another - we took the successful people and had them teach how to be successful.

It's so much more efficient this way. It might still take 5 years of training for someone to have masterful control over her or his body, but so long as they obey and work hard, success will come eventually.

These aren't the stone ages, where we'd grasp around in the dark for effective self-defense techniques. The road to success is long and hard, but it's well-paved and clearly marked today. We have maps, and also Search & Rescue standing by to catch people as they wander out of the Rye field of success.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#24

Post by jbhatab »

imjk wrote: post #17

He explains things well generally, and then lists off a bunch of different examples, but I don't think we gets specific enough. For example, he says, "I think my nigiri is still far from perfect: could use improvement to reach the perfect fish and rice balance with firmness and texture." Why does this take years as opposed to taking standardized pieces of fish and testing by simply adding more or less rice to it. Why…

I completely agree. It's just a process. The people trying to say that it takes years are just glorifying old standards

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#25

Post by stephengillie »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #20
bkeroack wrote: post #12

It's only "insane" by myopic Western/American standards. Look at the martial arts of Japan (Judo, Jujitsu) where to earn a black belt--which is traditionally not the end of learning but merely symbolizes understanding of the basics--takes at least 10 years of dedicated study. Since martial arts began to be "Americanized" in the ~1980s, we now see black belts handed out to 8 year old children after a year or two of st…

To be fair, the black belt implies only mastery of the standard practices of the discipline. It was originally the only belt awarded, and usually after a year or two of study. So nothing has fundamentally changed, except that now there are more degrees of belts.

The further differentiation of belt rank is an Americanization of the art - it's equivalent to handing out Participant medals once every few months.

When I learned, we had 9 ranks. Today, most studios have more than 27, so every form and throw and move has its own test and belt. It's maddening, but it's not unlike unit testing. (Should we apply principles of software development to martial arts education?)

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#26

Post by Red_Tarsius »

stephengillie wrote: post #23
bkeroack wrote: post #12

It's only "insane" by myopic Western/American standards. Look at the martial arts of Japan (Judo, Jujitsu) where to earn a black belt--which is traditionally not the end of learning but merely symbolizes understanding of the basics--takes at least 10 years of dedicated study. Since martial arts began to be "Americanized" in the ~1980s, we now see black belts handed out to 8 year old children after a year or two of st…

Instead of forcing a person thru a decade of trials in the dojo, and promoting those that manage to learn how to pass the trials one way or another - we took the successful people and had them teach how to be successful. It's so much more efficient this way. It might still take 5 years of training for someone to have masterful control over her or his body, but so long as they obey and work hard, success will come eve…

It's a more powerful reinforcement schedule (B. F. Skinner) than the old "wait for years and _maybe_ get a payoff" way, making students more motivated and aware of their mistakes.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#27

Post by stephengillie »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #9

Maybe I'm mistaken, but when I read stories of succesfull startups (aside from the usual startup porn), I keep hearing stories of people who didn't know . Sure, they had ideas, intuition, a deep intuition about where the market was -- but they didn't really know. So they tried experiments and learned. Then they did that some more. The constant refrain is intellectual humility and seeking to understand the people they…

When you don't know, the fastest way to learn is to find someone who does know, and ask them.

If one sushi chef likes another chef's sushi, why doesn't the one just ask the other how to make it? Because of social reasons?

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#28

Post by imjk »

csours wrote: post #22
imjk wrote: post #17

He explains things well generally, and then lists off a bunch of different examples, but I don't think we gets specific enough. For example, he says, "I think my nigiri is still far from perfect: could use improvement to reach the perfect fish and rice balance with firmness and texture." Why does this take years as opposed to taking standardized pieces of fish and testing by simply adding more or less rice to it. Why…

Probably because there is more than just nigiri on the menu... and there is more than one kind of fish, etc.

Yeah I get that, and of course I'm just picking at just one example. But if you watch the Jiro movie, there's an apprentice who spends a full year just learning to beat an octopus. His job for one year is simply to beat an octopus to learn how to tenderize the meat. The same goes for making sushi rice. Why do these chefs have to dedicate themselves for a year to learn how to make rice when surely it can be taught in a week to a point of minimal palatable difference.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#29

Post by Red_Tarsius »

jbhatab wrote: post #24
imjk wrote: post #17

He explains things well generally, and then lists off a bunch of different examples, but I don't think we gets specific enough. For example, he says, "I think my nigiri is still far from perfect: could use improvement to reach the perfect fish and rice balance with firmness and texture." Why does this take years as opposed to taking standardized pieces of fish and testing by simply adding more or less rice to it. Why…

I completely agree. It's just a process. The people trying to say that it takes years are just glorifying old standards

Today people are still buying hand-made portrait paintings. They could easily spend x10 less and take a photo or hire a digital painter. However, they still choose the old, irrational way.

The process itself is the value. The years spent mastering the little things is the sacrifice that makes it valuable to the costumer. In return, the chef follows the path to satori by sticking to his chosen kata, the way. Japanese work ethic is deeply rooted in the zen tradition.

Re: Why is the education of a sushi chef so insanely long?

#30

Post by coryl »

stephengillie wrote: post #25
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the black belt implies only mastery of the standard practices of the discipline. It was originally the only belt awarded, and usually after a year or two of study. So nothing has fundamentally changed, except that now there are more degrees of belts.

The further differentiation of belt rank is an Americanization of the art - it's equivalent to handing out Participant medals once every few months. When I learned, we had 9 ranks. Today, most studios have more than 27, so every form and throw and move has its own test and belt. It's maddening, but it's not unlike unit testing. (Should we apply principles of software development to martial arts education?)

This depends entirely on the art though. Arts like Tae Kwan Do or Karate have gone free for all, with many belt systems and rankings thanks to bastardization via profit motive. Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu however have been a lot more successful at keeping its bar high. In general, the skill level of a purple belt in any population of purple belts will fall in a tighter spectrum.
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