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An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

nytimes.com

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Re: An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

#21

Post by DannoHung »

mmt wrote: post #14
brc wrote: post #9

I recently went through LAX screening. I accidentally left my Leatherman pocket knife in my carry-on bag. It's a stainless steel knife with a 3 inch blade. Of course, I didn't know this until I arrived at my destination and unpacked my bag. The TSA screening completely missed it, even though it wasn't even remotely hidden. I think it is time to take a review of the TSA procedures and start to dissassemble the securit…

it's also completely ineffective. It's effective at the theater aspect. To ask for more is, arguably, unreasonable. I strongly suspect the average traveler or voter would be able to judge between what's good security and what isn't. I recall discussions such as arming flight crew immediately becoming political, overshadowing rational discourse.

If you want good security theater, just install some fancy looking machine that makes cool noises and every once in a while directs someone for a personal screening (regardless of whether they should be pulled out of line or not).

Also have a trained pro sitting on the sidelines pulling out people he finds suspect.

At a later point, maybe you can replace the fancy looking stuff with equipment that actually does something.

Re: An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

#22

Post by pyre »

jsgrahamus wrote: post #18
mmt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's also completely ineffective. It's effective at the theater aspect. To ask for more is, arguably, unreasonable. I strongly suspect the average traveler or voter would be able to judge between what's good security and what isn't. I recall discussions such as arming flight crew immediately becoming political, overshadowing rational discourse.

I'm not sure that the average traveler/voter can judge what is good security. What seems plain to me is that there is no totally safe place on this planet and that the better alternative to hoping that TSA has caught the bad guys, is to allow everyone the inalienable right to defend themselves. Could there be a downside to this? Yes, but at least they would be responsible for their own defense and would not have been…

So, in this brave new world, people that are afraid to use guns have lost the right to live because they didn't take up the responsibility to defend themselves?

Lifting the ban on guns/knives on an airplane is not going to make it safer to fly in a plane because "everyone will just pull out their guns and shoot the terrorist." What if the terrorist has a bomb strapped to him? What if he takes someone hostage? Just shoot through the hostage? What happens when a civilian decides they they are an expert marksman and tries to shoot the terrorist, but hits the hostage instead? Supposing that the terrorist was 'defeated' and everyone was safe, how would the legalities of that situation resolve? Is the person excused from killing an innocent because they were 'defending' their self?

Re: An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

#23

Post by pyre »

drc1912 wrote: post #17

"Mr. Bierfeldt, it turns out, was carrying the money because he was returning home from a regional conference of Campaign for Liberty, a group that supports Ron Paul, the former presidential candidate. " It totally makes sense to me that it was a Ron Paul evangelist who made this bruhaha. I have known a few in my life and this seems like something I could see most of them doing. Way to stand up for yourself!

> Way to stand up for yourself!

I hope you're not being sarcastic. It's a tragedy that these airport screeners feel themselves to be the representatives of the police. It's just like the security guards and retail managers that think they have a right to detain you if they think you've stolen something [They don't have any such right, unless they are holding you for the cops to get there and sort the situation out].

The reason that most people just put up with this stuff is because it's easier to just 'go with the flow' than to resist and have to go through this whole process. Personally, I have respect for the people that are willing to stand up against this crap and push back instead of just bending over.

Re: An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

#24

Post by pyre »

timr wrote: post #7
enjo wrote: post #5

All-in-all it sounds like everyone was really pretty reasonable. I don't see any losers in this. The TSA recognizes that they had a policy mistake and has reacted accordingly. It sounds like the police and the TSA investigators could have been a bit more...nice. Other than that, good for everyone involved:)

The TSA detained the man (possibly illegally), called the police, threatened him, and ultimately only acknowledged their bad behavior under the threat of a lawsuit. If that's reasonable, I'd hate to see unreasonable.

> The TSA detained the man (possibly illegally)

Not 100% sure that it was illegal. If you walk out of a retail store and set off those alarms, they do not have the right to search you. They do have the right to detain you iff they are holding you for the cops to get there (it becomes illegal when they detain you without calling the cops). This can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in general I believe this holds true.

Though I believe that the TSA should be held to a higher standard in their jobs (retail employees/managers are not trained to deal with this sorts of issues, at least not well).

Re: An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

#25

Post by pyre »

oikujhgfvg wrote: post #3

But who will protect us from crochet car cover plots? http://www.sewgirls.com/yarn/US-Customs-Detains-Citizen-Over...

I think that kind of stuff just depends on the border guard that you get. I've gone through that border crossing once. It was the middle of the night and the guard saw that we had an orange with us (crossing Canada -> US), so he took the orange and threw it in the trash and let us through.

It's definitely a lot less intimidating of a border crossing than the ones in Detroit or Niagara Falls.

[ Sort of off-topic: I've had at least two times where I was waved through a border crossing (Detroit) by the guard without even asking to see ID or a passport, but this was back in 2005. On the other hand, I once went across the border for ~20 minutes to drop off a present for someone (sending it in the mail across the border would have taken at least a couple of days) and they told me that I was 'randomly' selected for a full vehicle search once I told them my stay in Canada had been 20 minutes. ]

Re: An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

#26

Post by ciupicri »

dchest wrote: post #20
ciupicri wrote: post #15

There are tons of other phones that can record a conversation, so I don't understand what's the relevance of the iPhone in the HN title.

This is a lesson in branding. If it was, for example, a Motorola phone, the article would say just "a cell phone".

I wanted to say some "sweet" words about this iPhone propaganda, but on second thought I decided to refrain myself.

Re: An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

#27

Post by petercooper »

timr wrote: post #7
enjo wrote: post #5

All-in-all it sounds like everyone was really pretty reasonable. I don't see any losers in this. The TSA recognizes that they had a policy mistake and has reacted accordingly. It sounds like the police and the TSA investigators could have been a bit more...nice. Other than that, good for everyone involved:)

The TSA detained the man (possibly illegally), called the police, threatened him, and ultimately only acknowledged their bad behavior under the threat of a lawsuit. If that's reasonable, I'd hate to see unreasonable.

I'd say "unreasonable" is not answering the reasonable, banal questions of people employed to protect travellers and the nation at large.

Re: An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

#29

Post by dgordon »

pyre wrote: post #22
jsgrahamus wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that the average traveler/voter can judge what is good security. What seems plain to me is that there is no totally safe place on this planet and that the better alternative to hoping that TSA has caught the bad guys, is to allow everyone the inalienable right to defend themselves. Could there be a downside to this? Yes, but at least they would be responsible for their own defense and would not have been…

So, in this brave new world, people that are afraid to use guns have lost the right to live because they didn't take up the responsibility to defend themselves? Lifting the ban on guns/knives on an airplane is not going to make it safer to fly in a plane because "everyone will just pull out their guns and shoot the terrorist." What if the terrorist has a bomb strapped to him? What if he takes someone hostage? Just sh…

With 9/11 in recent memory, it becomes clear that "don't let people defend themselves because someone might get hurt" is a weak argument at best.

Oh, and the scene in "Snakes on a Plane" where half the plane gets sucked out because of a few bullet holes is quite false.

The legalities work the same way they would on the ground.

Re: An iPhone,the 4th amendment & TSA (airport screening) policy "change"

#30

Post by mynameishere »

xenophanes wrote: post #10
barrkel wrote: post #6

I read an interesting article some time back that strongly relates to this case, by (I think) a retired policeman, but I can't recall where. Anyway, the gist of his point was that there's a tradeoff between evidence in plain view, and invasive security checking. Police are allowed to use evidence of other wrongdoings while investigating a completely different matter, and switch their investigation priorities, as it w…

But having 5k in cash isn't evidence of wrong doing, in plain sight or not.

While I doubt you could accumulate the statistics, I'd bet that the carrying of 4700+ dollars correlates very well with participation in the drug trade. Depositing 10k into a US bank earns you a free investigation, even if not face-to-face.
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