What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#81

Post by themartorana » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:34 AM UTC

mgraczyk wrote: post #79

task_queue wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is standard fare for any police department ever. It took me about 4 months to get my phone back from the NYPD, which was fun. I love it when white people are shocked by their first arrest, because it (unfortunately) means something might get done. The system sucks. Now please scare other white people about it.

"I love it when white people ..." It's unclear to me why race has anything to do with this. Are you implying that you expect non-white people to handle "their first arrest" more casually, as if it is something they are familiar with and know will happen? If we really want things to improve, we need to stop complaining about how "white people don't see how bad it is for the rest of us." Focus on what we have in common…

I don't think it's entirely unfair. I'd venture that in the US, black people (and likely other minorities) are much more likely to have heard about and clearly understand what's in store for them if they get arrested. Most probably have a family member or close friend that has dealt with this injustice.

Almost none of my white friends understand the terrible truths in the system beyond reading accounts like this in the media. I include myself among them. Part of it is probably population realities - when a minority segment of the population suffers the majority of indignities, it's more likely to hit close to home.

Yeah, I'd like to remove black and white from many conversations. White guilt feels almost vogue, I have to hear about it so often from white friends and colleagues. But when it comes to the criminal justice system...

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#82

Post by drabbiticus » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:37 AM UTC

mgraczyk wrote: post #79

task_queue wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is standard fare for any police department ever. It took me about 4 months to get my phone back from the NYPD, which was fun. I love it when white people are shocked by their first arrest, because it (unfortunately) means something might get done. The system sucks. Now please scare other white people about it.

"I love it when white people ..." It's unclear to me why race has anything to do with this. Are you implying that you expect non-white people to handle "their first arrest" more casually, as if it is something they are familiar with and know will happen? If we really want things to improve, we need to stop complaining about how "white people don't see how bad it is for the rest of us." Focus on what we have in common…

The system is shitty for everybody and an appeal to a common humanity is absolutely critical for any reasonable expectation of humane social structures.

However, to suggest that the experience of the system is the same for everybody is naive at best. I read task_queue's comment more as the following:

"Societal structures do not change until those with more (social, political, economic, etc) power experience the inconvenience and injustice that people without the power to effect change experience on a more regular basis. That this is true is unfortunate."

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#83

Post by [deleted] » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:37 AM UTC

mgraczyk wrote: post #79

task_queue wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is standard fare for any police department ever. It took me about 4 months to get my phone back from the NYPD, which was fun. I love it when white people are shocked by their first arrest, because it (unfortunately) means something might get done. The system sucks. Now please scare other white people about it.

"I love it when white people ..." It's unclear to me why race has anything to do with this. Are you implying that you expect non-white people to handle "their first arrest" more casually, as if it is something they are familiar with and know will happen? If we really want things to improve, we need to stop complaining about how "white people don't see how bad it is for the rest of us." Focus on what we have in common…

[deleted]

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#84

Post by ceejayoz » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:43 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #74

wozniacki wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, someone tell me this is fucking illegal. I find these outbursts of genuine surprise and bewilderment amusing, in the best possible way. What I'm about to suggest is not meant to remedy or suggest alternate remedies to the workings of the criminal justice system as it currently operates. I'm merely expressing amusement at the colossal unfamiliarity of most of the generally law-abiding public (Black, White, His…

> I find these outbursts of genuine surprise and bewilderment amusing, in the best possible way. > What I'm about to suggest is not meant to remedy or suggest alternate remedies to the workings of the criminal justice system as it currently operates. > I'm merely expressing amusement at the colossal unfamiliarity of most of the generally law-abiding public ( Black, White, Hispanic or otherwise ) at how poorly our sys…

> I have thought of the police tactics shown in e.g. NCIS (shouting at people until they confess, tricking them into confessions, ...) as typical Hollywood exaggerations, but apparently I was blatantly wrong.

If anything, what you see on shows like NCIS are a romanticized, sanitized, whitewashed version of what really happens.

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#85

Post by lambda » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:46 AM UTC

harryh wrote: post #78

trhway wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 1st doesn't protect from firing when you trash your employer in public. It protects your trashing, not employment :)

The first amendment doesn't apply to my employer as I work for a private company, so you are right there. But is that true for cops who work for the government? I'm honestly not sure.

When you are on the job for the government, you are acting as a government representative and not a private person. You can be fired for what you say while on the job.

However, the police unions would never allow such a thing.

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#86

Post by ceejayoz » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:46 AM UTC

harryh wrote: post #59

rayiner wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single one of those officers should have been fired on the spot. I'm no fan of de Blasio, but he's the democratically elected mayor of New York. Turning your back to him is turning your back to the people who elected him.

Ignoring for the moment that the union certainly wouldn't allow such firings this also seems like a 1st amendment issue. What does the court have to say about expressions of speech in this context?

The military forbids its members from making political statements while in uniform. The police should probably have the same rule. If you want to campaign for/against someone, do it out of uniform.

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#87

Post by woah » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:48 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #58

kw71 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they expressed insubordination by turning their backs on the Mayor, that signalled to me that they have no respect for authority. This is exactly the kind of people that do not belong on a police force. I can't imagine why they weren't all fired. They certainly don't deserve any of the respect that they get, nor their pensions.

I can't imagine why they weren't all fired It seems peculiar to American discourse that wrongdoing in a job should be countered by firing rather than retraining or reform. Anyway, police departments generally have a hard enough time already finding and keeping staff. Firing them en masse requires replacing them en masse. Who polices the city while you're looking for and training a heap of new recruits?

Remember when they stopped making arrests for a little while after that incident... and everything was fine?

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#88

Post by woah » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:49 AM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #12

kw71 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they expressed insubordination by turning their backs on the Mayor, that signalled to me that they have no respect for authority. This is exactly the kind of people that do not belong on a police force. I can't imagine why they weren't all fired. They certainly don't deserve any of the respect that they get, nor their pensions.

What? They are allowed to express their right to free speech and expression as well, just as the protestors should be able to.

Since when does the first amendment keep you from being fired when you publicly insult the ceo?

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#89

Post by vacri » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:50 AM UTC

agwa wrote: post #77

vacri wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of your links support your case. In the first link, the case is about a memo written as part of the employee's role; a uniform is irrelevant (district attorneys don't wear uniforms, and the word 'uniform' is mentioned zero times in the document). In the second link, the article explicitly states: "Wearing a badge doesn’t forfeit the free speech of the person" . It's abundantly clear that these police turning…

> In the first link, the case is about a memo written on duty as part of the employee's role; a uniform is irrelevant (and the word 'uniform' is mentioned zero times in the document). The facts are not identical, but the facts are sufficiently similar that you could cite that case as precedence for arguing that the facts in question here should be treated similarly. The lawyer I linked to certainly thinks so. Are you…

Speaking of taking things out of context, did you read the rest of my paragraph, which talks about private speech versus official capacity, and matches the context surrounding my quote from the article?

in his official governmental capacity were the words - the funeral/protesting police were not on the clock on active duty, and as I said, no-one sane would confuse their message with a governmental message, official or unofficial.

Are you a lawyer?

?

It's clear neither of us are. So what? You're still misreading the second article re: private vs offical personage. That article is not saying what you're claiming it says. And as a result, the first link you provided is also not supporting your claims. The lawyer you linked to says absolutely nothing about uniforms - the term (and concept) 'uniform' appears nowhere in the article, but it does talk about the loss of freedom of speech when speaking in an official capacity.

And no, 'in uniform' is not the same as 'official capacity'. In none of these cases are they equivalent: the district attorney doesn't wear a uniform; Novara's phone call was about abusing his official capacity, and he could have been in the nude when he called, for all it mattered; the police turning their backs at the funeral are clearly not acting as a government voice and couldn't be confused to be doing so.

Re: What happens after you’re arrested at a protest in New York

#90

Post by harryh » Sun, May 03, 2015, 2:54 AM UTC

lambda wrote: post #85

harryh wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first amendment doesn't apply to my employer as I work for a private company, so you are right there. But is that true for cops who work for the government? I'm honestly not sure.

When you are on the job for the government, you are acting as a government representative and not a private person. You can be fired for what you say while on the job. However, the police unions would never allow such a thing.

First of all, we aren't even talking about the police saying anything out loud. We're talking about them turning their backs on the mayor while at a funeral which, while not verbal speech, is clearly a form of expression that would fall under the 1st amendment.

Second, I suspect that a majority of the officers in question were not on the job while attending that funeral.