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Talking About Money

kalzumeus.com

351–360 of 412 posts

Re: Talking About Money

#351
Posting your company salaries does a few things:

1) It promotes mediocrity. 2) Creates a political cesspool. 3) Ties the hands of hiring team.

1 - Excellent people want to go places where they can make more. When excellent people learn about public salary postings the first thing they will worry about is the perception of other employees. I suspect they will just avoid conflict and work somewhere else. Really think about the current open salary systems: state governments, federal systems (cia, fbi..), school teachers, college systems, military..

2 - Will you help the "next" person above your salary grade? Why? Your goal is to be higher than he/she - so this promotes extremely bad behavior. This is how yahoo is setup. People will be trained to create little moats to protect power, inflate budgets, hide data, hurt other employees.

3 - Really want that new hire? Well, now you have no negotiation power. If you pay this employee salary X. Anyone who gets less than X (Call this Y) will be pushed down in the employee chain. So now, instead you want to minimize Y. Sublimity, you will hire less and less capable people to avoid conflict with the current team.

Re: Talking About Money

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> But a typical CEO worth his salt will crush something silly like that in no-time, if you really want to hire good people this is the type of person you want to fire That is actually not true. This kind of employee low balling is condoned behavior. I applied for a position at Automattic and had Matt Mullenweg (CEO) pull this on me. Everything seemed to have gone perfectly well - everyone involved in the process see…

>> I was told "I seem to be senstive about being Indian" out of nowhere. Jesus. It's amazing to think someone who's worked so long in the tech industry can think like this. If anything, we're the ones who should know best how little race means when you have the skills to get the job done.

True, and if this story is true, it also surprises me in a nasty way because

a) I am Indian, and until now had largely thought that we were largely a privileged class within tech, if not outside it -- and consequently weren't affected by race issues within it.

b) All of the articles about how oh-so-wonderfully Automattic does their remote work had always led me to believe they were a forward-thinking, "good" company. If they are bringing up race in an interview it completely destroys this perception.

Re: Talking About Money

#353
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. If engineers are notoriously bad at negotiating (which we probably are), the solution is to improve that skill, not to seek to avoid negotiating in any form or fashion. The idea that you can willfully eschew any responsibility for asking for what you want (which is really what a negotiation is) and still get it, is both self-defeating and naive. The reason lawyers/agents/salespeople are good at negotiatin…

This is true, but it's also inefficient for society as a whole. Basically, what the other side is saying is that yes, negotiating is a skill, but the reason why our economy works so efficiently is that we instituted division of labor. If everybody specializes in some skill, then they will be better at it than a jack-of-all-trades. On average, an engineer should be able to become a better engineer if they do not simul…

>> Basically, what the other side is saying is that yes, negotiating is a skill, but the reason why our economy works so efficiently is that we instituted division of labor.

Understood, but division of labor is largely gray and only really gets divided when you move up the income chain (ie, the wealthier you are, the more things you can pay others to do to free up your time). Why learn how to make your bed or drive a car since technically you could pay other people to do those things for you? Professional athletes, musicians, and actors pay agents to negotiate their deals for them because they have much more at stake and it makes sense to bring on somebody who is an expert in contracts for specialized fields since its almost certainly a net win for both parties (talent and agent).

Unfortunately, engineering doesn't really pay enough to warrant bringing on an agent to negotiate on your behalf. So people can choose to wish that complete transparency existed and that we all make the same amount at each level of ability, or they can choose to accept that the job market is just that- a market. If you accept a salary of a certain rate and on certain terms, you are selling your services at an agreed-upon price. Just because somebody else asked for more and got it, doesn't change the fact that you were happy enough with the amount you agreed to work for and got it.

So really what we are talking about is wanting happiness with the amount you are paid regardless of whether it is enough to meet your personal needs. If the next person is making 10% more than you, then suddenly you are unhappy. There was a famous psychological experiment that actually verified this same thing- that people would generally be happier to make less money so long as somebody else in the same position isn't making more. That is not a net win for employees. In fact, those who can negotiate up their pay are probably helping the entire field of employees in that domain, since even if you are the bottom 50% of wage-earners in a high-paying field you are doing better than if everyone's pay remained stagnant at a lower level.

Re: Talking About Money

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recruiting expert here! First off, a company "walking" without your salary information is a failure on their part, and their loss! However, to answer your question - I find the salary question to be a great indicator on many levels, here a few: It's just one data point in determining whether you're a qualified candidate 1) Why would I waste the candidate or the client/employer's time if there's too large a gap betwee…

I'm happy with your candor, at the same time you're displaying just about every trait that makes me loathe recruiters. It's refreshing to have this so out in the open, a bit like an SEO expert giving you the inside of his mind. Someone's current salary is none of your business, it's that simple and as a block of reasonably intelligent professionals we could simply all agree to never supply that information to the com…

Interesting response. Loathe recuiters? Let's take it easy on the echo chamber cliche here. Yeah, lots of bad apples out there, but ask any reasonable professional: a good recruiter is extremely valuable.

You did forget that there are 2 types of recruiters: agency (outside) and corporate (inside).

I, the agency recruiter, do not want to "dislodge" the candidate for the minimum amount required. Not because my fee will be higher with a greater salary, but because I'm actually incentivized to do what is best for both the employer & employee. This is called sales. When you do good by all parties to the transaction, it pays dividends long-term.

So, no, we're not trying to "snag" them. I appreciate your paranoia, as you're not alone; many people dealing with bad recruiters probably need to vent.

But for the most part, your perception of the recruiting industry is different from the reality.

Re: Talking About Money

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While dealing with recruiters can be a hassle their goals align much more closely with ours if we are maintaining the fallacy that only the money counts. Recruiters are typically paid a percentage of your salary so they want you to receive the highest salary possible since that is the best payout for them as well. My experience with recruiters is they want to know how little it will take for you to accept the job, bu…

> While dealing with recruiters can be a hassle their goals align much more closely with ours if we are maintaining the fallacy that only the money counts. Recruiters are typically paid a percentage of your salary so they want you to receive the highest salary possible since that is the best payout for them as well. No, this isn't true, and this misconception is explicitly why I invoked the realtor problem. If the re…

One wonders why the incentives aren't aligned. I.e. the value of the recruiter to the employer is finding a higher paying job, so the compensation should reflect that. E.g. 10% + 50% of the pay increase.

Re: Talking About Money

#356

Posting your company salaries does a few things: 1) It promotes mediocrity. 2) Creates a political cesspool. 3) Ties the hands of hiring team. 1 - Excellent people want to go places where they can make more. When excellent people learn about public salary postings the first thing they will worry about is the perception of other employees. I suspect they will just avoid conflict and work somewhere else. Really think a…

> Excellent people want to go places where they can make more

The issue with engineers is that we don't do that and are bad at negotiations. Once at job people rarely look out unless they realise that they are grossly underpaid. This may be true for other job profiles like sale/biz-dev etc where the day to day jobs hone their skills for best deal extraction.

Re: Talking About Money

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What books can I read to, at the very least, attempt address the questions in your 3rd paragraph, given how unique every business is? Isn't anything you find a book on sales or marketing so abstract that it's 2 or 3 layers of assumptions before you can talk about projections? How does one begin a career in SaaS sales / marketing? What makes for a good "portfolio piece" in that domain?

One of the things that has made Patrick a "tech. celebrity" is that he has written extensively and openly about this very topic. In particular his brand of uniqueness was to take a lot of things that engineers don't like and then turn it into an engineering problem. He didn't guess, he tested. Here is the amazing thing, he also did all of us a huge service and wrote it up and put it on the internet for everyone to fi…

Some starting points:

http://www.kalzumeus.com/greatest-hits/

http://www.hyperink.com/Sell-More-Software-Website-Conversio...

Re: Talking About Money

#358
post #356

Posting your company salaries does a few things: 1) It promotes mediocrity. 2) Creates a political cesspool. 3) Ties the hands of hiring team. 1 - Excellent people want to go places where they can make more. When excellent people learn about public salary postings the first thing they will worry about is the perception of other employees. I suspect they will just avoid conflict and work somewhere else. Really think a…

> Excellent people want to go places where they can make more The issue with engineers is that we don't do that and are bad at negotiations. Once at job people rarely look out unless they realise that they are grossly underpaid. This may be true for other job profiles like sale/biz-dev etc where the day to day jobs hone their skills for best deal extraction.

You are totally correct. They avoid conflict. If engineers are told at the interview - "Your salary will be this, it will be posted online for all the other employees to see"

I suspect the engineer to not be there Monday.

Re: Talking About Money

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, you should always value equity at zero. Neither your landlord nor the guys at the farmers' market want your stock certificates, which are overwhelmingly likely to end up worthless (if they aren't already). Second, most companies don't pay bonuses. Those that do usually have a bonus pool that depends in some way on the company's success in the marketplace, and they can almost always abolish bonuses at ma…

Serious question: if you value equity at 0, then ( ceteris paribus ) given a choice between (1) an offer at $150,000 and 50 basis points and (2) an offer at $150,100 and 0 basis points, you should choose option (2). Given that: why should any employer offer equity?

I don't think they should. There are few circumstances in which any employee is genuinely going to have a major impact on the company's success, and in those circumstances it's appropriate to offer equity. If you're employee number 2, it's probably appropriate. If you're an EVP with total P&L and strategic control of a major business unit, it's probably appropriate. Generally, it isn't.

There's no reason for the owners of the company to give up any economic interest to people who can't directly influence outcomes. There are too many things that have to go right between a rank-and-file employee doing something right/well and their equity being valuable to them: the entire chain of command, whether the company has the resources to execute well, whether the company's suppliers and partners come through, whether the sales force is compensated properly, whether fads and trends in the market are favourable, macroeconomic conditions (both natural and man-made) and when all's said and done and the quarter's numbers come in, whether Wall Street analysts are in the mood to drive up the company's stock price (if the company is private, add in whether the investors want to go public and the market for IPOs). Conversely, the company can be lucky even if most of its employees are deadweight; you end up rewarding a lot of people for nothing, and those who actually did something will resent how much wealth was transferred to noncontributors. People aren't stupid; they know all this. Having equity doesn't make them feel more empowered, it makes them feel less so: it's just one more part of their economic lives they can't control. And for that reason, equity doesn't operate as an effective incentive, doesn't make people feel valued, and I would challenge anyone to prove that it improves outcomes for the company's owners.

With a few fairly obvious exceptions, the overwhelming majority of your employees are much more worried about (1) keeping their jobs and (2) bringing home more cash than about some pie in the sky payday that will almost certainly never come. If you want to reward someone for a job well done, give them a bonus or a raise. If you want your company to be seen as a great place to work, don't do layoffs; you're the capitalist, you take the risks. When things go well, you pay a market wage for labour and keep the rest; when things go badly, you should pay a market wage for labour and take the loss. You're the one making the decisions that led to things going badly; if you don't like taking the loss, make better decisions. If your employees wanted to live or die based on whether a company succeeds, they'd be founders. They're not; you are. Offering equity helps no one; it costs you money and control if things go well but, again with a few obvious exceptions, doesn't help you attract or retain better people. If you want to offer people something they'll appreciate, offer them a secure job for satisfactory performance and above-market pay for above-market work. Those who so desire can use that pay to buy their own stock or lotto tickets.

Re: Talking About Money

#360
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While dealing with recruiters can be a hassle their goals align much more closely with ours if we are maintaining the fallacy that only the money counts. Recruiters are typically paid a percentage of your salary so they want you to receive the highest salary possible since that is the best payout for them as well. No, this isn't true, and this misconception is explicitly why I invoked the realtor problem. If the re…

One wonders why the incentives aren't aligned. I.e. the value of the recruiter to the employer is finding a higher paying job, so the compensation should reflect that. E.g. 10% + 50% of the pay increase.

The value of the recruiter to the employee is that. The recruiter isn't being paid by the employee. You could consider an agency model, but honestly I don't think that's likely to actually work because of the temperament of the developers in question.
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