Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work • Hacker News Board

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#101

Post by juliangregorian » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:29 PM UTC

maccard wrote: post #51

tyho wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. I have asked a few people opposed to drugs why they were opposed to drugs and their answers were mostly health related i.e. Cannabis gives you psychosis so you shouldn’t smoke it. I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was to…

> There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. My two problems with this is - 1) A number of people who recreationally use the substances keep telling me "You've gotta try this" - Its none of your business what I decide I want to take or not take. (Note this also applies to alcohol) The second issue is the real reason - There's not a problem with the majority of these drugs in their pure…

Neither of your problems is at all relevant towards justifying the taboo on getting high.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#102

Post by juliangregorian » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:32 PM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #57

simplexion wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why the campaigns against alcohol have been so unsuccessful. It is amazing that so many people have no issue with losing control mentally under the influence of alcohol and those same people think it is scary that I would like to try LSD.

Normal alcohol dosage doesn't lead to massive loss of control

What's a "normal alcohol dosage"? When I was younger I used to blackout drink every weekend, and most of my friends did too. Very normal, definitely "massive loss of control".

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#103

Post by Lawtonfogle » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:32 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #16

_yosefk wrote: post #14

"...the impossibility of winning the “war” against theft, burglary, robbery, and fraud has never been used as an argument that these categories of crime should be abandoned." (From Don't Legalize Drugs, http://www.city-journal.org/html/7_2_a1.html )

Well given these are crimes against another person, rather than 'crimes' against oneself, that argument is a load of bollocks!

Where do we draw the line? Say you buy a drug that comes from a cartel that uses kidnapping, rape, and murder to hold their power. It is possible for the drug to have been produced safely, but it wasn't in this case and you are feeding the market. Is the government preventing the drug from being created relevant? What happens if, given a safe production option, those purchasing it do not do their due diligence in checking the source. Are they still not creating a market where the object produced with harm is to be sold, further promoting the harm?

Consider a alternate example. Say you downloaded a few megabytes of data. In this case, the bytes were produced by actions involving a child being abused, but it would've been possible to produce them with a photorealistic CGI application.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#104

Post by hackerboos » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:33 PM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #53

simonh wrote: post #26

I'm surprised they don't also cite the first war against drugs (actualy, a drug) - prohibition. Exactly the same scenario played out then as is, hopefully, coming to it's inevitable conclusion now in the 'western hemisphere'. If the same thing is starting up again in the East, it's going to be a bloody and chaotic few decades to come before the same lesson gets learned the third time over. Fortunately we do have a la…

> I'm surprised they don't also cite the first war > against drugs Being a British publication, presumably they'd consider the Opium Wars - where the Brits fought to be allowed to sell the Chinese junk - as the first drug war.

Growing opium in India to sell to the Chinese. They objected to their citizens becoming addicts (rightly so) so the British empire and East India Trading company turned their gunships on them and seized Hong Kong under the Treaty of Nanking.

The Chinese, outgunned, had to surrender the terms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#105

Post by tdkl » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:37 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #59

tyho wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. I have asked a few people opposed to drugs why they were opposed to drugs and their answers were mostly health related i.e. Cannabis gives you psychosis so you shouldn’t smoke it. I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was to…

I once had a conversation about cannabis with my mother that went along these lines. I told her I'd smoked it a few times, she was shocked, I asked what her concerns were. Over the next half an hour or so I patiently and factually answered all of them. She had clearly been sold fully on the propaganda and had thought, amongst other things, that one puff of weed smoke could potentially kill you if you were unlucky. An…

Facts don't work on some people because their ego doesn't let them to admit they were wrong.

It shakes your belief systems, specially if you built your character around some facts like these and they stuck with you for the better part of your life. You have to consider that core beliefs like this influenced many decisions in life.

People actually thinking about that they were perhaps wrong is more painful that blindly refusing to accept the fact.

*disclaimer : I'm not a professional, but am interested in human psychology from a self growth perspective.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#106

Post by visarga » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:38 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #59

tyho wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. I have asked a few people opposed to drugs why they were opposed to drugs and their answers were mostly health related i.e. Cannabis gives you psychosis so you shouldn’t smoke it. I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was to…

I once had a conversation about cannabis with my mother that went along these lines. I told her I'd smoked it a few times, she was shocked, I asked what her concerns were. Over the next half an hour or so I patiently and factually answered all of them. She had clearly been sold fully on the propaganda and had thought, amongst other things, that one puff of weed smoke could potentially kill you if you were unlucky. An…

The lies perpetrated by the state and media are so shameless that normal people don't suspect they are lies at all. After they find out, they feel ashamed for being duped. Nobody likes feeling stupid, so they pretend or prefer to believe that the government is still right.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#107

Post by talmand » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:43 PM UTC

juliangregorian wrote: post #95

coldpie wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your parent commenter's point was, the implied other half to ending the drug war is replacing that policy with another one. What policy does it get replaced with? Just a free-for-all market that a crazy literal libertarian would like? Some sort of regulation similar to our current legal drug market? What about rehabilitation programs? How would those be implemented and what would they cost? Suddenly you've go…

Why is this so difficult for some people to process? We have very well regulated markets for cigarettes, alcohol, prescription drugs... why would this be any different? And even if we moved to state-sponsored rehab, do you have any idea how much money is squandered on the "war"? I don't hear these aforementioned fiscal conservatives complaining about that.

I imagine that when you have generations of people that have been told all their lives by authority that "this" is bad, it's rather difficult to change a mindset to "this" isn't so bad now and we wish to raise revenues with it.

If a fiscal conservative isn't complaining about the cost of the drug war at this point, I would conclude they aren't a fiscal conservative.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#108

Post by jqm » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:45 PM UTC

I'm against the drug war and for people's choice to decide what they want to put in their bodies. I'm also against waste, cruel treatment and general stupidity which are also reasons I oppose the drug war.

That being said, I believe drug wars can work. China and opium a century ago and modern day Singapore come to mind. The reason the drug war isn't being won in the West is because it isn't being executed properly. So why not drop the pretense?

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#109

Post by tmp-20150107 » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:47 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #76

mibbitirc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drug usage goes hand in hand with theft. Once you're addicted to drugs, you have to steal to pay for that habit. It's hardly a victimless crime.

In a free market cocain and heroin should cost about the same as OTC generic drugs. That means your 1000 usd/day heroin habit is now a lot less than a coffee run to starbucks.

Looking at the official NHS pricelist for May 2015, 100 10mg Diamorphine (Heroin) tablets cost GBP 24.09 which is a lot cheaper than street prices...

I'm guessing a GBP 80 (1/16 oz) per day habit could drop to around GBP 10-15 (not really sure about purity, but assuming adulterated to 10% would mean 0.1g street Heroin is equivalent to one of these pills, so that would be the equivalent of 10g or over 1/4 oz which would be GBP 160 probably)

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#110

Post by talmand » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:48 PM UTC

juliangregorian wrote: post #102

peteretep wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal alcohol dosage doesn't lead to massive loss of control

What's a "normal alcohol dosage"? When I was younger I used to blackout drink every weekend, and most of my friends did too. Very normal, definitely "massive loss of control".

The first time you black out, you know your own personal "maximum alcohol dosage". After that, scale back to find your "normal alcohol dosage" and act accordingly.