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Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

economist.com

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Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#21

Post by mibbitirc »

Nursie wrote: post #16
_yosefk wrote: post #14

"...the impossibility of winning the “war” against theft, burglary, robbery, and fraud has never been used as an argument that these categories of crime should be abandoned." (From Don't Legalize Drugs, http://www.city-journal.org/html/7_2_a1.html )

Well given these are crimes against another person, rather than 'crimes' against oneself, that argument is a load of bollocks!

Drug usage goes hand in hand with theft. Once you're addicted to drugs, you have to steal to pay for that habit. It's hardly a victimless crime.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#22

Post by Cthulhu_ »

kristopolous wrote: post #11
thret wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And coffee! Seriously, you don't know what you're missing!

Or why not just sleep and have some dreams? People act like losing consciousness to hours of vivid hallucinations is unnatural. We have rooms and furniture dedicated to it. "This lovely house has 2 bathrooms and 3 hallucinations chambers - to prepare you for work!" Make sure to get 8 hours of delirium in darkness every day to promote a healthy lifestyle.

The acts themselves aren't; introducing external, man-made chemicals to invoke those are usually unnatural though - as in, the body doesn't make them themselves in such quantities. You know what I mean.

Recreational drugs shouldn't be a problem though, as long as the user is aware of its effects and doesn't go overboard. Heavier stuff like heroin should remain illegal though.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#23

Post by Nursie »

mibbitirc wrote: post #21
Nursie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well given these are crimes against another person, rather than 'crimes' against oneself, that argument is a load of bollocks!

Drug usage goes hand in hand with theft. Once you're addicted to drugs, you have to steal to pay for that habit. It's hardly a victimless crime.

I started writing a sensible reply to this and couldn't It's outrageous.

'Drug use goes hand in hand with theft'

Do you know how ignorant that sounds? Caffeine and alcohol are drugs, do they go hand in hand with theft? Is everyone legally smoking weed in Colorado a thief too?

'Once you're addicted to drugs, you have to steal to pay for that habit.'

Not all drugs are addictive. Most are less addictive than alcohol, nearly all are less addictive than tobacco. The vast majority of drug users are not addicts. In any sensible country those people who do get addicted would receive help and maintenance doses of their drug and wouldn't need to turn to crime. See Switzerland and their heroin programs.

'It's hardly a victimless crime.'

It's exactly a victimless crime. If someone steals stuff to support a habit THAT is the crime with the victim. Not drug use. FFS.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#24

Post by UweSchmidt »

Nursie wrote: post #15
ctolsen wrote: post #9

Anyone interested in the topic should read the LSE report on the Economics of Drug Policy. The facts are staggering, especially on the human and fiscal cost of internal displacement. I bet not many know that Colombia just a few years ago was only beat by Sudan in terms of internal refugees, and it's all due to the drug war. It also gives some perspective to the Western debate – we talk about decriminalisation and hea…

It sorta sickens me that those on the pro-war side of this debate always ignore what happens in South America and parts of Africa. The rhetoric is always about preventing addiction at home, stopping a few American (or British or Australian or whatever) kids from getting hooked and having a tough life. Never mind the destabilised countries, the thousands slaughtered, that's far away and not our problem. Jim-bob having…

Agree 100%: War on Drugs is bad, instead legalize/ decriminalize/ provide medical care. The War on Drugs puts massive pressure on South-/Central American countries. End the War on Drugs and this pressure is relieved.

HOWEVER, no one seems to spell out exactly who is hypocritical or schizophrenic: The actual people who buy drugs that originate from these countries. People need to actually stop giving their money directly to the Cartels, right?

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#25

Post by Nursie »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #24
Nursie wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sorta sickens me that those on the pro-war side of this debate always ignore what happens in South America and parts of Africa. The rhetoric is always about preventing addiction at home, stopping a few American (or British or Australian or whatever) kids from getting hooked and having a tough life. Never mind the destabilised countries, the thousands slaughtered, that's far away and not our problem. Jim-bob having…

Agree 100%: War on Drugs is bad, instead legalize/ decriminalize/ provide medical care. The War on Drugs puts massive pressure on South-/Central American countries. End the War on Drugs and this pressure is relieved. HOWEVER, no one seems to spell out exactly who is hypocritical or schizophrenic: The actual people who buy drugs that originate from these countries. People need to actually stop giving their money direc…

>> HOWEVER, no one seems to spell out exactly who is hypocritical or schizophrenic

To me it's the actions of the country as a whole. On the one hand the citizens set up this incredibly lucrative market, and on the other the (allegedly) democratic governments send out the troops/agents/whatever to make life worse for those in the countries selling/producing.

>> People need to actually stop giving their money directly to the Cartels, right?

It's both, equally. One side creates the market, the other forces it underground. Without the buyers the cartels would fold. If the trade was white-market the cartels would fold. It takes both 'sides', the buyers and the suppressors, to get where we are now.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#26

Post by simonh »

I'm surprised they don't also cite the first war against drugs (actualy, a drug) - prohibition. Exactly the same scenario played out then as is, hopefully, coming to it's inevitable conclusion now in the 'western hemisphere'. If the same thing is starting up again in the East, it's going to be a bloody and chaotic few decades to come before the same lesson gets learned the third time over.

Fortunately we do have a largely successful, bloodless war on a drug to learn from. Tobacco abuse is less than half what it was back in the early 70s in the US, and similar declines are seen in many European countries. Advertising campaigns, usage restrictions in public places and high taxes have been very effective, and also meant that the medical costs of treating the effects of tobacco abuse have been more than covered by tax revenues from it's sale in many countries.

While campaigns against alcohol abuse have not been as successful, mainly because they have not been as focused on reducing all usage, tax revenues have been high. Normalisation of low levels of use in appropriate circumstances and ammounts have also limited the harmful effects on most abusers and those around them.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#27

Post by seunosewa »

JupiterMoon wrote: post #18
sneak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are you to condone what others do or don't do to their own bodies and minds? That's like not condoning execution-altering software. It's none of your business what I do with my hardware.

I guess it comes back to a very basic legal and moral issue. I.e. should the law assume that everything that hasn't been specifically legislated for is illegal or assume that everything that hasn't been specifically legislated against is legal? Or to put it more simply should we whitelist or blacklist? In the whitelist scenario one has to condone drug taking to legalize it. Meanwhile in the blacklist scenario one has…

Were already blacklisting. Blacklisted acts are called "crimes".

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#28

Post by ukigumo »

_yosefk wrote: post #14

"...the impossibility of winning the “war” against theft, burglary, robbery, and fraud has never been used as an argument that these categories of crime should be abandoned." (From Don't Legalize Drugs, http://www.city-journal.org/html/7_2_a1.html )

But theft, burglary and robbery are all crimes against property while drug consumption is about personal health, be it alcohol or tobacco or un-taxed drugs.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#29

Post by forgotpasswd3x »

mibbitirc wrote: post #21
Nursie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well given these are crimes against another person, rather than 'crimes' against oneself, that argument is a load of bollocks!

Drug usage goes hand in hand with theft. Once you're addicted to drugs, you have to steal to pay for that habit. It's hardly a victimless crime.

> Once you're addicted to drugs, you have to steal to pay for that habit.

You most certainly don't.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#30

Post by ValleyOfTheMtns »

mibbitirc wrote: post #21
Nursie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well given these are crimes against another person, rather than 'crimes' against oneself, that argument is a load of bollocks!

Drug usage goes hand in hand with theft. Once you're addicted to drugs, you have to steal to pay for that habit. It's hardly a victimless crime.

Uh... no. Taking drugs is a victimless crime. Stealing isn't. One doesn't necessarily lead to the other.
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