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Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

economist.com

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Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#11

Post by kristopolous »

thret wrote: post #10
peteretep wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I do not condone the use of mind altering > substances Why not? Also, you should try beer, it's AMAZING.

And coffee! Seriously, you don't know what you're missing!

Or why not just sleep and have some dreams?

People act like losing consciousness to hours of vivid hallucinations is unnatural.

We have rooms and furniture dedicated to it. "This lovely house has 2 bathrooms and 3 hallucinations chambers - to prepare you for work!"

Make sure to get 8 hours of delirium in darkness every day to promote a healthy lifestyle.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#12

Post by phaemon »

Osiris wrote: post #6
sneak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are you to condone what others do or don't do to their own bodies and minds? That's like not condoning execution-altering software. It's none of your business what I do with my hardware.

It doesn't sound like you read the second part of my post. My point was exactly that while I hold a personal belief about the use and effects of the use of certain substances, that doesn't mean that I have a right to enforce that belief on others.

I think the problem is with your use of the word "condone". I'm sure you meant it in the sense of "like", but it sounds as though you meant "give permission".

I suspect the reply is basically saying, "I didn't ask your permission for anything." :-)

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#13

Post by seanp2k2 »

kristopolous wrote: post #11
thret wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And coffee! Seriously, you don't know what you're missing!

Or why not just sleep and have some dreams? People act like losing consciousness to hours of vivid hallucinations is unnatural. We have rooms and furniture dedicated to it. "This lovely house has 2 bathrooms and 3 hallucinations chambers - to prepare you for work!" Make sure to get 8 hours of delirium in darkness every day to promote a healthy lifestyle.

But if the chemical which induces this state is produced outside of your own body, we'll put you in prison / execute you in other countries.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#15

Post by Nursie »

ctolsen wrote: post #9

Anyone interested in the topic should read the LSE report on the Economics of Drug Policy. The facts are staggering, especially on the human and fiscal cost of internal displacement. I bet not many know that Colombia just a few years ago was only beat by Sudan in terms of internal refugees, and it's all due to the drug war. It also gives some perspective to the Western debate – we talk about decriminalisation and hea…

It sorta sickens me that those on the pro-war side of this debate always ignore what happens in South America and parts of Africa. The rhetoric is always about preventing addiction at home, stopping a few American (or British or Australian or whatever) kids from getting hooked and having a tough life.

Never mind the destabilised countries, the thousands slaughtered, that's far away and not our problem. Jim-bob having a reduced bank-balance, a hole in his septum or a heart condition from cocaine abuse is far worse, somehow. To the outside world our countries are schizophrenic or just plain hypocritical - buying massive quantities of drugs and at the same time sending out military and quasi-military forces around the world to stop them.

The whole thing is crazy and pushes our demand-side problem out to the poorer places on the supply side.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#16

Post by Nursie »

_yosefk wrote: post #14

"...the impossibility of winning the “war” against theft, burglary, robbery, and fraud has never been used as an argument that these categories of crime should be abandoned." (From Don't Legalize Drugs, http://www.city-journal.org/html/7_2_a1.html )

Well given these are crimes against another person, rather than 'crimes' against oneself, that argument is a load of bollocks!

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#17

Post by InclinedPlane »

_yosefk wrote: post #14

"...the impossibility of winning the “war” against theft, burglary, robbery, and fraud has never been used as an argument that these categories of crime should be abandoned." (From Don't Legalize Drugs, http://www.city-journal.org/html/7_2_a1.html )

Prosecuting theft and jailing thieves leads to a safer society with a lower incidence of theft. There is no indication that drug prohibition causes a significant reduction in use, and many indications that it leads to a society that is far less safe.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#18

Post by JupiterMoon »

sneak wrote: post #3
Osiris wrote: post #2

While I do not condone the use of mind altering substances, I believe that the externalities of the illegal drug trade are far worse than what the drugs do to the users (e.g., the number of murders is Mexico is currently unknown and is somewhere between 20k and 250k a year). A second argument in favor of regulation over an outright ban is personal liberty. Our social contract is about protecting ourselves from each o…

Who are you to condone what others do or don't do to their own bodies and minds? That's like not condoning execution-altering software. It's none of your business what I do with my hardware.

I guess it comes back to a very basic legal and moral issue. I.e. should the law assume that everything that hasn't been specifically legislated for is illegal or assume that everything that hasn't been specifically legislated against is legal?

Or to put it more simply should we whitelist or blacklist?

In the whitelist scenario one has to condone drug taking to legalize it. Meanwhile in the blacklist scenario one has to merely not condemn it.

Personally I prefer a blacklist situation.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#19

Post by gadders »

Osiris wrote: post #2

While I do not condone the use of mind altering substances, I believe that the externalities of the illegal drug trade are far worse than what the drugs do to the users (e.g., the number of murders is Mexico is currently unknown and is somewhere between 20k and 250k a year). A second argument in favor of regulation over an outright ban is personal liberty. Our social contract is about protecting ourselves from each o…

>>Our social contract is about protecting ourselves from each other, not from ourselves. Drug use that negatively impacts the lives of someone other than the user should be illegal

I kind of agree with you there, but where do you factor in healthcare and other costs that need to paid by all due to addicition? How should they pay for their treatment?

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#20

Post by oska »

_yosefk wrote: post #14

"...the impossibility of winning the “war” against theft, burglary, robbery, and fraud has never been used as an argument that these categories of crime should be abandoned." (From Don't Legalize Drugs, http://www.city-journal.org/html/7_2_a1.html )

It has often been pointed out that taking prohibited drugs is a victimless crime. Your examples of theft, burglary, robbery and fraud are not.
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