Live data from Hacker News

Tesla Energy

teslamotors.com

251–260 of 590 posts

Re: Tesla Energy

#251
post #196
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? According to wiki, India's middle-class makes anywhere from $10 to $50 per day. When you factor in that this will cost a lot more than $3500, would these really sell like crazy?

They can afford scooters, which cost one quarter that much. On $50 a day, it could be saved for in less than a year even if it costs $5000. Relative to their income, Indians have a lot of savings, due to their high savings rate (30%+). India's accumulated household wealth per adult is $5500. If you have two pairs of parents and one pair of grand-parents in one house, that is 6 * $5500 = $33000. Could be worth it, IMO…

You'll find about 50 million people in middle class in India, who'll earn about $1k a month. Once you buy it, ship it, install it etc, I think $5k is a pretty typical cost figure.

That's quite steep. It's nearly 50% of your income. Also consider that as a rule, generally, the less affluent you are, the smaller percentage of income will be 'disposable' income. i.e. if you make $100k, you might have $60k in essential expenses, the remaining 40% of your income can be spent on savings or non-essential consumption like holidays. But if you make $5k like an average person in India might, you'll be hard pressed to not spend the vast majority on essential spending. So an investment that's 50% of a 1-year income may sound reasonable, but not when 95% of your income normally goes to essential expenses. That'd mean that you'd have to forgo 10 years of your entire disposable income to finance this.

Now how essential is it? I've traveled both in Africa and Asia and am familiar with powercuts (hell, I'd get em monthly in Montreal, too!) Generally though, it's not something I'd spend a lot of money on to fix. Cooking and heating is still gas powered. Essential lighting tops out at 100W, no need for a $3.5k battery that can deliver 20x that power. My smartphone/laptop are battery powered.

I mean, don't get me wrong, power cuts suck and nobody likes them. And for businesses (different story) they can be a disaster. (e.g. check out the World Bank 'Doing Business' reports [0], they look at power cuts affecting industry. It's a big factor)

But for homes? Most people cope just fine. You lose your TV and maybe your wifi if you don't have mobile internet, the rest can be managed.

Anyway India is obviously going to become a huge market, but that's a pretty long-term thing. You have hundreds of millions of middle class consumers in OECD countries who have the purchasing power and different motivations (environmental), backed by governments that are shifting to pro-solar, and huge profits-first industries that are seeing solar drop to super competitive prices within the next 10-20 years. India probably won't be a huge market in comparison. China perhaps, they're bigger, have more solar capacity and more purchasing power.

As for the scooter, you can buy 5-6 of them for the price of installing one of these, new, let alone second hand. And they're an essential part of transportation for which having nothing, or public transport is often not a viable alternative.

[0] http://www.doingbusiness.org/reports

Re: Tesla Energy

#252
post #197
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 is not enough. 4kW seems to be the maximum potential drain from the battery. That wouldn't power an oven… let alone anything else at the same time. 4kW inverters seem to be around the $1000 mark… but they don't seem to increase linearly (10kW inverter $4000 for example). Of course you could go totally off-grid, but the cost isn't going to be just $7k… it's likely to be at least $15-20k by the time you get everythin…

" 4kW seems to be the maximum potential drain from the battery. That wouldn't power an oven… let alone anything else at the same time." 4kW is enough to power an entire home continuously, without thinking about energy use, even a large one with a home office with several people working in it + washing machine + oven + electrical stove at the same time . I have the data to prove it, too - 10 second interval power cons…

My air conditioner is 12 kW. No chance.

Re: Tesla Energy

#253
post #86
post #56

I doubt they would install one in an RV... but I can dream.

Likewise for boats. It's high time we stop using lead batteries in vehicles where weight matters, and the pricing on this looks great .

I thought about boats as well.

Do you know the weight and dimensions of this?

It looks like it is equivalent to 835 Ah @ 12V. That is 10 lead batteries. You probably can buy more than 3 lead batteries for 300 dollars, but the weight and 10 year warranty does look attractive.

Re: Tesla Energy

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dont count on it, we also get the product release lag for things like this too. Buying a Tesla Car here is at least double what it is in the US too.

Double? Try 10%, Telsa Model S 70D: USA: USD$75,000 cash price = AUD$95,153 AUS: AUD$102,400, the other AUD$13,893 you pay (in NSW) is to the state and federal governments in various taxes.

Admirably, tesla is the only premium car company that is not gouging Autralians on price.

The gouging done by BMW and Mercedes is shocking. I expect Tesla to really start to cut into their sales.

Re: Tesla Energy

#255
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If what you say is true, then with better economies of scale and longer investment horizons, utilities would quickly erase any peak-vs-non-peak arbitrage opportunities.

It's hard to wrap your head around all the challenges in energy. If you're REALLY good at it you can find some incredible arbitrage opportunities...see Enron. Consider the power output characteristics of some common energy sources: Gas, Nuclear, Hydro, Wind, Solar Our "sustainable" sources of power - hydro, wind, and solar - are also the ones with the most irregular and unpredictable power output. This creates a prob…

> There was another alternative on HN recently. Basically a super-deep hole in the ground with super heavy object falling into it, but suspended by a rope.

Or a train going up and down a hill...

http://www.aresnorthamerica.com/

Both are basically the same concept as pumped hydro which has been in use for a long time... pump water up a hill when energy is cheap, let it fall down and turn a turbine when energy is expensive. And hey, if it rains, free energy!

The rail/hole in the ground approach have the advantage of taking up less land I suppose, but I suspect are less efficient.

Re: Tesla Energy

#256
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on country. I doubt you could ever run, say, Germany or Britain on locally produced solar power.

There also wind... But solar already provides quite a substantial contribution in Germany. See this live chart: https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm . Considering the rate at which solar power is getting cheaper, I'd say a solar power based economy is within reach.

Great link. It's also amazing how Solar power generation falls significantly in the winter months. For instance, December output is less than 10% of June!

Chart here: Check out monthly/weekly energy production for 2014 https://www.energy-charts.de/energy.htm

Re: Tesla Energy

#259

One thing that might go overlooked: Load shifting could, in theory, lower electric bills such that there's ROI without solar panels. --- Edit for why: On-demand power is expensive. "Spinning up" additional power during the day is more expensive than having certain types of power generation running all the time. In theory, pumping power into a battery at night during non-peak hours will cost less than consuming direct…

I could do this today. With my current time-of-use electric rate, I pay an average of $0.25/kWh more for peak power than I do for off-peak [the differential is larger in the summer, smaller in the winter]. If I shift 8kWh per day, then I would generate positive ROI in less than five years. Your edit is spot-on. Utilities typically use natural gas "peaker" plants to meet mid-day spikes in demand, while nuclear plants…

And you'd get a free backup power system too. That's worth something.

Re: Tesla Energy

#260
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like a backup generator is the last place where I would make my decisions based on the environment. I mean how long is it actually going to be active? Also batteries aren't exactly environment friendly either.

That may well be how you feel, but lately I feel like any burning of petrol is just disgusting (though I still do it as I cannot afford alternatives at the moment). I want to completely divest from fossil fuels, even for intermittent use. That's as much for the social value of saying "yeah I don't use fossil fuels and it's great" as it is for the environmental impact. I want to try all this tech to be an early adopte…

> that may well be how you feel, but lately I feel like any burning of petrol is just disgusting (though I still do it as I cannot afford alternatives at the moment).

LOL. that's some serious self-delusion. some of the best i've ever seen in the wild.

the alternative to fossil fuels is free -- just don't use them. your feet are free. bikes are almost free and subsidized in many cities.

the reason you use it is not because you "can't afford the alternative" but because you find the convenience and utility quite high, i.e. WORTH THE COST, compared to walking your ass around town and going cold in the winter, just like everyone else.

fundamentally this is a problem of economics, not of really really really wanting to do the right thing.

Post reply on HN