This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind • Hacker News Board

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#61

Post by torbit » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:10 PM UTC

joshuaheard wrote: post #27

Abortion and gay marriage were changed in the courts, so I don't know if that counts as America changing its mind. That being said, I would posit that any increase in the rate of America changing its mind is due to the increase in the rate of information exchange due to advances in communication technology.

agree. The south is very religious & a high percentage would say they are Christian over non religious. I bet they verbally support it when asked.. to not be shamed when speaking against it. When it comes to voting, they are against it.

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#62

Post by gknoy » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:12 PM UTC

Vaskivo wrote: post #49

serve_yay wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recommend the link above. It's garbage

You have a five minute difference in your posts. Did you ever read the article? I'm not agreing completely with it, but I'll refrain from commenting until I finished reading it.

The URL implies it's from 2010. It's possible that they have read it or encountered it before.

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#63

Post by hga » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

fiatmoney wrote: post #35

amelius wrote: post #22

The gun laws are missing from these graphs. How fast would America change its mind about them?

From its nadir in ~1994 with the federal Assault Weapons Ban, you've seen that ban expired, numerous states liberalize their rights to bear arms (either concealed, or since 2009 or so openly), and the Supreme Court rule in Heller that the 2nd amendment is a protection of an individual right. 4 or so states have bucked that trend, but the overall trend in the past 20 years is, if not fast, directionally clear.

I say it was more like a 30 year process, starting with the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986, which prevented the BATFE from extinguishing US gun culture using the Gun Control Act of 1968, and Florida passing a shall issue law in 1987 which got the carry ball rolling after the predicted "Blood in the Streets!" and "Dodge City!" didn't happen. So if you accept my starting point, neither very fast nor initially directionally clear, nor directionally clear in the last couple or so years.

ADDED: and essentially none of it outside Illinois was forced by the federal courts to date, and that anti-trend looks to continue. Heller and McDonald were nice, but have resulted in very few changes on the ground, nor in the political debate. Although the changes in Illinois are dramatic, extremely so for Chicago and a few of its suburbs, which went from a complete ban on civilian ownership of handguns to shall issue concealed carry (and without automatic prosecution of self-defense cases) in 3 years (!).

As for details, there are currently 7-10 viciously anti-gun states as I count them: unquestioned are California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island. Connecticut and Delaware are shall issue concealed carry in practice, but that could change, and Colorado, Connecticut, and Washington state have gotten worse post-Sandy Hook. And of course, the District of Columbia, the subject of Heller, is practicing Massive Resistance, with the Federal court system not really interested in resolution or following the Supremes.

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#64

Post by netcan » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:18 PM UTC

On a long enough timescale (which can still sometime be pretty short) stuff seems to move together. The centre. The fringes. The legislation, the courts. And of course, public opinion.

Democracy form a certain perspective is built in to us. Or at least people (demo) have in built mechanisms for moving together.

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#65

Post by hga » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:27 PM UTC

clarkmoody wrote: post #32

amelius wrote: post #22

The gun laws are missing from these graphs. How fast would America change its mind about them?

What would you chart? "Gun laws" are not as clear-cut as the issues listed in the article.

But their raw change has been massive. When I came of age, I could not: carry concealed in my home state or more than a hand full of them, or buy ammunition mail order, and the BATFE was in the process of exterminating US gun culture.

Since then I cannot buy a machine gun manufactured after 1986, nor an imported "assault weapon", nor buy a gun from a dealer without an "instant check", and as fiatmoney mentioned, nationally "assault weapons" have mostly cycled.

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#66

Post by wwweston » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

smackfu wrote: post #26

They probably should have left abortion out, since it's not clear that American ever changed their mind on that. Over the last 20 years, it's still roughly 50/50. http://www.gallup.com/poll/170249/split-abortion-pro-choice-...

They should have indeed left it out. Abortion is a different (and tougher) issue because there isn't just a preconception/prejudice at work -- there are multiple important values in tension with one another.

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#67

Post by wanderingstan » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

joshuaheard wrote: post #27

Abortion and gay marriage were changed in the courts, so I don't know if that counts as America changing its mind. That being said, I would posit that any increase in the rate of America changing its mind is due to the increase in the rate of information exchange due to advances in communication technology.

Gay marriage has been steadily gaining in public approval, as seen here: http://www.gallup.com/poll/169640/sex-marriage-support-reach...

This is indeed America changing its mind.

You're right that there is not a direct connection between America's laws and America's minds, but the article was clear in what it was reporting.

It would have been interesting to also include information on public polling of these issues, but this information doesn't exist beyond a few decades ago.

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#68

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:32 PM UTC

saraid216 wrote: post #50

twoodfin wrote: post #9

The case comes amid a wave of gay marriage legalization... This phrase, and the title, mask the fact that in the majority of states same-sex marriage legalization came from court cases, not through legislation or referenda[1]. "America", broadly construed, is quickly changing its mind, too, but this "wave" is more a product of judicial thought than public opinion. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in…

In America, there's no longer much legitimacy placed in legislation; we generally look to the judiciary for any actual governing thought these days. Legislation is mostly seen as a stepping stone; it's not until it's been tested in court that a law is really valid.

[deleted]

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#69

Post by ska » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:32 PM UTC

saraid216 wrote: post #50

twoodfin wrote: post #9

The case comes amid a wave of gay marriage legalization... This phrase, and the title, mask the fact that in the majority of states same-sex marriage legalization came from court cases, not through legislation or referenda[1]. "America", broadly construed, is quickly changing its mind, too, but this "wave" is more a product of judicial thought than public opinion. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in…

In America, there's no longer much legitimacy placed in legislation; we generally look to the judiciary for any actual governing thought these days. Legislation is mostly seen as a stepping stone; it's not until it's been tested in court that a law is really valid.

I suspect that some legislation has been written with this in mind for quite a while now. The laws themselves being an exercise in Overton window type thinking, not with any view that they would stand for long.

If true, this situation becomes somewhat self-perpetuating

Re: This Is How Fast America Changes Its Mind

#70

Post by serve_yay » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 4:48 PM UTC

Vaskivo wrote: post #49

serve_yay wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recommend the link above. It's garbage

You have a five minute difference in your posts. Did you ever read the article? I'm not agreing completely with it, but I'll refrain from commenting until I finished reading it.

I read enough to discover that it was garbage