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China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

volkskrant.nl

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Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#31
post #27

Soviet Union tried to create a new citizen. You won't easily find creature more miserable than their result. Alcohol consumption spiked and life expectancy actually plummeted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#/media/Fil... This is life expectancy in Soviet Union - peaked at around 74 years(for females) before the Perestroyka was initiated. And started to 'plummet' only when SU was no more.

"peaked at around 74 years(for females)"

Why females?

If you actually take time to look at the chart, you will see that life expectancy plummeted between 1965 and 1985, losing full three years male life expectancy and gaining zero for women.

And it "peaked" under the rule of Gorbachev who scrapped that "new citizen" nonsense in favour of damage control, which did not help him in the long run anyway.

It did not peak before Gorbachev was in power.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#32
post #12

What I wonder about when I read things like this: How did they get to this point? What goes on in the mind of the person sitting in the "idea room" when they first thought of this? Are they just the product of an already oppressive government and therefore see this as completely and totally fine? Or do they know that it is oppressive, but since they're already a cog in the machine, they pitch the idea up and get prai…

I've read enough articles over the years that this move on China's part is not surprising to me at all. I think the average person in China is quite fed up with the lack of morality and social compassion in the general public - due to news articles like the ones I am about to link you.

Extreme lack of good samaritan behavior: http://www.chinasmack.com/2015/stories/old-chinese-woman-aba... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/videos/shanghai-pudong-airpor...

Chinese tourist behavior: http://www.chinasmack.com/2015/videos/thai-model-rants-about... http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/videos/thai-flight-turned-bac... http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/mainland-chinese-tour...

I think the majority of the West believes that the government is behind everything. But the truth is that most of these kinds of changes in China are actually reflected in the people's opinion. In this case, the PEOPLE in China are really sick and tired of seeing news articles like few I have linked. The government has just decided that this seems like the best method to achieve what the people want.

I know it sounds kind of crazy, but you have to remember that almost nobody in China has ever read 1984. They don't share your values.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you should probably do same things that successful countries do. Ones that did not have devastating civic unrest. From Australia to Austria. What do they do? What's holding them afloat? Hint: it's the remnaints of democracy and civil society, not special services looking for destabilizing factors day and night. Special services don't hurt, but everyone relying on just them had bitter end. Treating your citizens…

I'm not sure what your comment has to do with the motivations of the person in the "idea room."

Basically same thing as with someone who see their future.

They try to fight reality and thus make what they saw self-fulfilling.

Once you look for insurgents you only see them everywhere and then you are ruined.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#34
The interesting truth is that the majority of Chinese society agrees with and supports such policies. Misunderstanding that and possibly trying to save them is pointless and counter productive. In my experience there is a surprising lack of individual social responsibility (or ethical behaviour) in China unless they are aware that they are under surveillance.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#36
Let's face it: we are not going to avoid mass data collection and scoring in the west either. The technology is just too cheap to not get people tempted to do it.

The least bad defense probably is to subvert this into a kind of peer to peer panopticon as much as possible. Everyone sees and rates all kinds of aspects of everyone else explicitly and publicly.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#37
post #12

What I wonder about when I read things like this: How did they get to this point? What goes on in the mind of the person sitting in the "idea room" when they first thought of this? Are they just the product of an already oppressive government and therefore see this as completely and totally fine? Or do they know that it is oppressive, but since they're already a cog in the machine, they pitch the idea up and get prai…

[Playing Devil's advocate here, just to offer alternate perspectives]

> How did they get to this point?

Having a dictatorship as a government tends to lead down this path.

> What goes on in the mind of the person sitting in the "idea room" when they first thought of this?

I don't think the people who pitch these ideas are always the negative power hungry types - though with the media constantly pitching fear as they do in North America, it's easy to see how we'd immediately jump to that conclusion. My knee jerk reaction is incredulity, but stop and think about it for a second... their brainwashing is no different than happens in our Western "Democracy." We talk about the "freedom" we have, but our behaviour is manipulated by the media, advertising, consumerism, the society around us which seeks to enforce our buy in to their values. What's the difference if it's peer pressure making us conform or the Government? The end result is the same - it makes it a struggle to maintain independent thought, and upon reflection, is it really independent thought anyway? Are we truly free? Cases can be made for both sides of the argument with both sides claiming the other is deluded.

There are many negative personalities in society, those that don't toe the line, those that don't care about the effect their actions have on others, those that would do whatever they please and to hell with everyone else.

I can see how in some skewed perspective, one might consider "what if we can make people conform to the way we think everyone should behave to make our society a better place for all." Unfortunately, as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I could see it bringing harmony to society if everyone bought into it, however, I think it's much more likely to end up in some Demolition Man style dystopia where those that conform live in the open and those that don't wish to conform and want freedom live in some alternate reality, hidden from mainstream society.

Hopefully Taco Bell doesn't win the franchise wars or they're all doomed :P

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#38
From a Salon article on US data mining, http://www.salon.com/2015/04/26/big_datas_big_libertarian_li...

"All of this is part of what I call the informational appetite. It’s our total faith in raw data, in the ability to extract empirical certainties about life’s greatest mysteries, if only one can deduce the proper connections. When the informational appetite is layered over social media, we get the messianic digital humanitarianism of Mark Zuckerberg. Connectivity becomes a human right; Facebook, we are told, can help stop terrorism and promote peace. (Check out Facebook.com/peace to see this hopeless naïveté in action.)"

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#39

This is madness. I thought I was reading a fake article. > the system is 'very ambitious in both depth and scope, including scrutinizing individual behavior and what books people read. It's Amazon's consumer tracking with an Orwellian political twist.' What a coincidence. Recently I had to decide whether to buy books on politics for kindle. I didn't like the fact that it tracks everything I buy, what sentences I high…

> Recently I had to decide whether to buy books on politics for kindle. I didn't like the fact that it tracks everything I buy, what sentences I highlight, the notes I keep... I bet my libertarian books would make my score very low in future China.

This is why I keep "pirating" and hoarding books. I know it's bad for the common good and bad for the authors but I feel paranoid about corporations and national security agencies collecting and later, perhaps, analyzing what I read, including how long I linger over a page, what I underline, when I take screenshot excerpts, etc.

I started innocently enough, by scanning all my physical books (and downloading the epubs or pirated pdfs of books I already paid for in physical form whenever available) just to lighten my steps, so to speak. Then I came upon a passage in 1984 where books were altered, entire passages excised and rewritten to suit whatever powers that be. It was completely unrealistic when 1984 was written, of course, but in 2013 (when I read it), this hit a little bit too close to home. With all our devices constantly itching to phone the mothership, this is not a fantasy anymore but a possibility. All that stands between Orwell's dark vision and reality is, in fact, political will and our collective memory of times when this was not possible. Perhaps future generations who do not remember physical books will more easily acquiesce to such intrusions for the sake of "mental hygiene" and, you know, the children and stuff.

Anyhow, today I look at a 16K+ Bibdesk database which, of course, includes the files/ebooks on my airgapped machine and feel curiously satisfied. Not in a lifetime will I be able to read all this but I know that I could spend my remaining days reading freely, no matter the external circumstances. Freedom of thought! (Also, a very neat and nifty system for me personally I admit... :)

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#40

That sounds basically like a Credit Rating System, similar systems exists in probably every first world country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating

Right, a mixture of that, and a few others: - Criminal records / record of conduct - Tracking by various advertising companies, market research, etc. - Whatever records NSA, FBI etc. keep on you. This doesn't even have to be a file-per-person, but they have your metadata, and if you stick out, you might come under closer scrutinty. The difference is that these sources are not pulled together. Also as a sibling post n…

> That's why you can have big posters in China saying things like "Friends! Be virtuous and vigilant!"

I'm not sure what you want to imply, but i just got back from London where each and every public transport facility (bus, tube, train) kept repeating over the PA that "any suspicious people or parcels" should be reported to a member of staff. Or something like that.

We're not really that different -- i would be surprised if the US is.

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