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China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

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21–30 of 165 posts

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#21

That sounds basically like a Credit Rating System, similar systems exists in probably every first world country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating

This goes much further into social behavior, and takes advantage of consumer and social data in new ways:

"If friends have a poor lending reputation, this reflects badly on the person, just as prolonged playing of video games. Buying diapers indicates responsibility and scores therefore well."

Also, while it starts with financial responsibility, the ambitions are larger:

"The intentions of the new system are not only economical, fighting fraudulent practices, but also moral. 'This is a deliberate effort by the Chinese government to promote among its citizens "socialist core values" such as patriotism, respecting the elderly, working hard and avoiding extravagant consumption', says Creemers."

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#22
This is madness. I thought I was reading a fake article.

> the system is 'very ambitious in both depth and scope, including scrutinizing individual behavior and what books people read. It's Amazon's consumer tracking with an Orwellian political twist.'

What a coincidence. Recently I had to decide whether to buy books on politics for kindle. I didn't like the fact that it tracks everything I buy, what sentences I highlight, the notes I keep... I bet my libertarian books would make my score very low in future China.

> This score is not only determined by one's lending behavior, but also by hobbies and friends. If friends have a poor lending reputation, this reflects badly on the person, just as prolonged playing of video games. Buying diapers indicates responsibility and scores therefore well.

This detail was hidden in the article, yet it's one of the most important. It's not about external control, but also self-control. This is what a true Orwellian society promotes. The score acts as feedback to everything we do.

It's funny to imagine social hackers buying tons of diapers to get on top of the rankings.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#23
post #12

What I wonder about when I read things like this: How did they get to this point? What goes on in the mind of the person sitting in the "idea room" when they first thought of this? Are they just the product of an already oppressive government and therefore see this as completely and totally fine? Or do they know that it is oppressive, but since they're already a cog in the machine, they pitch the idea up and get prai…

Let's say you're the Chinese government (or a person in the government) and care deeply about the future of China. What's your main concern? Is it not the prevention of destabilizing civic unrest like that we've seen in Tunisia, Syria, Egypt, Ukraine, and for that matter, China? That's the worst possible thing that could happen to the country, and it's quite far from unlikely, and I'd want to do whatever I can to pre…

Then you should probably do same things that successful countries do. Ones that did not have devastating civic unrest. From Australia to Austria.

What do they do? What's holding them afloat? Hint: it's the remnaints of democracy and civil society, not special services looking for destabilizing factors day and night. Special services don't hurt, but everyone relying on just them had bitter end. Treating your citizens like criminals didn't help.

I assure you that Syria and Libya had extensive systems to counter insurgents, and it led them straight nowhere. As it was for DDR and USSR.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#24

That sounds basically like a Credit Rating System, similar systems exists in probably every first world country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating

The difference being that credit ratings are used to evaluate how creditworthy you are by looking at tangible data that is (mostly) directly related to your use of credit and actually predictive of your credit worthiness.

This system gives the government the power to codify and even gamify what it means to be a good citizen. It's attempting to shape the way people think and behave in an extremely invasive way.

This is terrifying.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#25

That sounds basically like a Credit Rating System, similar systems exists in probably every first world country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating

Right, a mixture of that, and a few others:

- Criminal records / record of conduct - Tracking by various advertising companies, market research, etc. - Whatever records NSA, FBI etc. keep on you. This doesn't even have to be a file-per-person, but they have your metadata, and if you stick out, you might come under closer scrutinty.

The difference is that these sources are not pulled together. Also as a sibling post noted, there is no feedback to the citizens. I don't know whether I have a bad or a good score with the police. I hope I have a good score :-). But if you want to consciously change citizens behavior, you'd have to tell them their scores. (Well, what we do right now changes citizens behavior by scaring them, but thats a different issue.)

One thing I find curious is that there is apparently no sensitivity among the inventors of this scheme towards how dystopian it sounds like. That's why you can have big posters in China saying things like "Friends! Be virtuous and vigilant!" or a Hong Kong official saying something in earnest like "if the brain is sick, it must be washed" with regards to school textbooks. There are PSAs and government posters in the US, too, and people try to push their agendas in school curriculums there, too... but for one they would not go quite as far in the US, and especially such manipulation is attempted much more tastefully.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#26
post #12

What I wonder about when I read things like this: How did they get to this point? What goes on in the mind of the person sitting in the "idea room" when they first thought of this? Are they just the product of an already oppressive government and therefore see this as completely and totally fine? Or do they know that it is oppressive, but since they're already a cog in the machine, they pitch the idea up and get prai…

China has long been a "face" orientated society. This is traditional to varying extents throughout the world, with (parts of!) the US probably being at the other end in terms of extreme individualism.

Once you keep dossiers on people, it's natural to want better dossiers. This is just an extension and a centralization of technology that in the was is used to mould people's consumerist behaviour by rating their purchasing habits and credit. In the US there are reports of people being unable to access jobs if they have poor credit or healthcare if they have poor "lifestyles".

Dehumanisation is very easy: you reduce people to statistics, and then give those tasked with maintaining the system the objective of increasing certain statistics. The overall question of "is this just?" is hard to see and hard to discuss.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#27

Soviet Union tried to create a new citizen. You won't easily find creature more miserable than their result. Alcohol consumption spiked and life expectancy actually plummeted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia#/media/Fil... This is life expectancy in Soviet Union - peaked at around 74 years(for females) before the Perestroyka was initiated. And started to 'plummet' only when SU was no more.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#28
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, the thing about this comment isn't that I believe it couldn't happen. It's that I for damn sure don't think it will only be done by China. The designing will be regulated in all countries, some attributes will be ruled unsafe to alter, or only allowed to be altered in specific fashions. The appropriate medical council variant will explain rationally that it's unsafe to do otherwise for such and such reasons. The…

Completely agree but I see it much worse. The general public will have access to change certain genes/or be required to make these changes for the 'good' of the population. These Genes will be to make the working class less disruptive (reducing conflict by reducing genes that generate anger/or narrowing the emotional band of people to a much more narrow scope (think gene changes that have the same result as anti depr…

"working class"

I actually doubt you need much working class in the society capable of large-scale gene editing.

Working class is only profitable when produced by pre-industrial society on its own ("village").

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#29
post #12

What I wonder about when I read things like this: How did they get to this point? What goes on in the mind of the person sitting in the "idea room" when they first thought of this? Are they just the product of an already oppressive government and therefore see this as completely and totally fine? Or do they know that it is oppressive, but since they're already a cog in the machine, they pitch the idea up and get prai…

I'm an American. So what I can't help wondering is ...

How comprehensive is the data analysis system that my government uses ???

Is it more ... or less comprehensive ???

Do they really only use it on "bad" actors ??? Or do they use it on everyone to determine who has the capacity to be a "bad" actor ???

Etc etc etc.

Articles like this, at least, give me a good idea of what they are probably doing. However, I have to say, I'd like more articles on how to remain invisible to government surveillance systems. Though I'm pretty sure it is impossible at this point. Or, at the very least...

impractical in the extreme.

Re: China rates its own citizens – including online behaviour

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you're the Chinese government (or a person in the government) and care deeply about the future of China. What's your main concern? Is it not the prevention of destabilizing civic unrest like that we've seen in Tunisia, Syria, Egypt, Ukraine, and for that matter, China? That's the worst possible thing that could happen to the country, and it's quite far from unlikely, and I'd want to do whatever I can to pre…

Then you should probably do same things that successful countries do. Ones that did not have devastating civic unrest. From Australia to Austria. What do they do? What's holding them afloat? Hint: it's the remnaints of democracy and civil society, not special services looking for destabilizing factors day and night. Special services don't hurt, but everyone relying on just them had bitter end. Treating your citizens…

I'm not sure what your comment has to do with the motivations of the person in the "idea room."
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