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Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

nytimes.com

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Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#51

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jacquesm wrote: post #47
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you actually have lived in one of those high corrupt countries, I don't think you'll be able to see the difference.

I've lived in quite a few places with extremely high corruption and to be honest I don't know what I prefer, probably on the one hand it feels comfortable to have the corruption hidden behind a layer of veneer, on the other to have it out in the open at least allows you to discuss the problem with others without coming across as paranoid.

This is quite true, at least with my experience of living in China (which is not that corrupt, but more corrupt than the USA, and mostly in the open).

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#52

Post by archgoon »

kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

You'd think Snowden would've mentioned the NSA blackmailing the president.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#53

Post by K_REY_C »

archgoon wrote: post #52
kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

You'd think Snowden would've mentioned the NSA blackmailing the president.

That's the whole point, right? The info would be about any future presidential candidates.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#54

Post by [deleted] »

discardorama wrote: post #50
logicallee wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's a thought here you should complete it. Your comment as it reads now is an ad-hominem attack and should be downvoted.

You are proposing that the NSA invade everybody's privacy and collect all the private information. And yet you yourself refuse to disclose the name of your startup; what it does; who works there, etc. If you are going to be that cavalier about my private information, at least show us how by disclosing your private information.

[deleted]

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#55

Post by logicallee »

discardorama wrote: post #50
logicallee wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's a thought here you should complete it. Your comment as it reads now is an ad-hominem attack and should be downvoted.

You are proposing that the NSA invade everybody's privacy and collect all the private information. And yet you yourself refuse to disclose the name of your startup; what it does; who works there, etc. If you are going to be that cavalier about my private information, at least show us how by disclosing your private information.

never said they should publish it - to the contrary, they should deny they even have it.

you can email me for that info.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#56

Post by rl3 »

junto wrote: post #11
kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

For that to be true, that would mean that the existing president would have been campaigning to curb the powers of the NSA before he became president and then afterwards flip flopped, changed his mind and backed off to the point of supporting more surveillance. No way! That actually happened! [1] my god, why aren't the American public and press even asking these questions? However, he must have changed his mind for s…

I don't think it's blackmail. The NSA is probably afraid of the executive branch, not the other way around.

More likely, it's simply the continued concentration of executive power combined with fear of political fallout in the event an attack happened in the wake of scaling back these programs.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#57

Post by rdtsc »

kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

> It is here to control the population in the country.

I am not even sure about that. It is there because it is already there. By that I mean it is a giant bureaucratic investment project with billions of dollars flowing through. Many careers (oh look job creation!), business opportunities, support, training, etc tied into it.

During terrorist scares its powers expanded because there was an opportunity to expand, so expand it did. But not because some cabal of Illuminati wanted to read sexting messages of every person on earth.

So now it is sort of a cancer that feeds and grows and acquires power for itself. The same with TSA and many other such, at the time, seemingly temporary institutions and measures.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#58

Post by deafeningblow »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #28

As welcome as this is, I don't want to rely on the standard of effectiveness in my opposition to such programs.

It is unfortunate, but most people will trade their rights and freedom for perceived security.

Providing evidence to the contrary might be the practical way to sway the majority's opinion.

It does legitimize the means to the end though, which is never good.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#59

Post by sneak »

kmonsen wrote: post #36
junto wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that to be true, that would mean that the existing president would have been campaigning to curb the powers of the NSA before he became president and then afterwards flip flopped, changed his mind and backed off to the point of supporting more surveillance. No way! That actually happened! [1] my god, why aren't the American public and press even asking these questions? However, he must have changed his mind for s…

There is also a long history of doing this, just one example: https://www.google.com/search?q=fbi%20mlk Another (not so clear) example is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer_prostitution_scan... He was called "Wall Streets worst nightmare", and suddenly he has to resign because he spent time with a prostitute.

Joseph Nacchio is a better example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio

They threw a bunch of insider trading charges at him when he impeded efforts by the NSA to get Qwest (of which he was chairman and CEO at the time) to do warrantless bulk collection.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#60

Post by Spooky23 »

kmonsen wrote: post #36
junto wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that to be true, that would mean that the existing president would have been campaigning to curb the powers of the NSA before he became president and then afterwards flip flopped, changed his mind and backed off to the point of supporting more surveillance. No way! That actually happened! [1] my god, why aren't the American public and press even asking these questions? However, he must have changed his mind for s…

There is also a long history of doing this, just one example: https://www.google.com/search?q=fbi%20mlk Another (not so clear) example is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer_prostitution_scan... He was called "Wall Streets worst nightmare", and suddenly he has to resign because he spent time with a prostitute.

Spitzer was out of control. His sin was alienating all of those around him.... Many folks in Albany were cheering his demise.

The other two leaders of the legislature have been prosecuted for corruption. His Lieutenant Governor upon succeeding Spitzer disclosed that he was a cocaine user that routinely cheated on his wife. You need to look at Spitzer through the lens of corruption that is NY politics... He was a victim of hubris, not conspiracy.

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