Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 198 posts

Re: Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

#171

Post by jqm »

6d0debc071 wrote: post #136
jqm wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

R.E. #1. Don't do this. The company pays you, not your boss. Therefore, you should have the companies best interest in mind, not the personal best interest of your boss. Ideally these two things are aligned. If they are not there is a problem. You can try to fix it (which entails a degree of personal risk, yes), or you can leave. But don't just stay quite. That is disloyalty to the entity which is paying you. If the…

> That is disloyalty to the entity which is paying you. My employer is my client, no more, no less. I am employed to produce a set of work for them, and to employ my skills to particular ends as defined in the contract, and that's it. Their relationship with their other contractors is their business. This idea that because someone pays you to do work you should serve their interests in all things - even to the extent…

Loyalty is a deprecated value I suppose. So let me put it like this... we are riding together in a boat. The boat has a hole in it. Not my problem?

Re: Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

#172

Post by Silhouette »

ErrantX wrote: post #123
AH4oFVbPT4f8 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with resigning. If you resign and are in the US, you give up the ability to file for unemployment. I would start cutting expenses and start looking for something new until that day comes.

Does the US allow "constructive dismissal" claims? In the UK, if you feel you are being worked out of a job the official advice is to quit, otherwise any claim of constructive dismissal becomes more complex.

I can confirm this can be a serious concern in the UK system.

Someone close to me was in a similar situation a little while ago and did start a formal grievance process. Thanks to what seems to have been bad/late professional advice, they missed one of the deadlines for taking things further and consequently that formal process terminated.

Around that time, they started taking professional advice from a different source and exploring their options, continuing to work for the employer in the meantime.

They subsequently concluded that the job was beyond hope and resigned, IIRC a couple of months later, and lawyers started exchanging letters to try and avoid formal action. As I understand it, just about the first thing the former employer's lawyers did was point out that the former employee had remained in the job for a considerable time after the end of the formal grievance process without (as far as the employer was concerned) taking any further action. They argued this was sufficient evidence that no problems serious enough to be considered constructive dismissal remained at that time, and as it turned out, that was effectively game over.

(This matter never went to formal action. Reportedly the advice given to the former employee at that point was that their former employer had a decent chance of winning on that basis, and even if they lost it would cause a lot of time and stress to pursue the matter to its full conclusion with limited benefit likely to result.)

YMMV, if you need legal advice talk to a lawyer, etc. Just make sure you get better professional advice than this unfortunate person did, and get second opinions early if anyone advising you seems to be slow to respond or otherwise giving you less than their full support.

Re: Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

#173

Post by [deleted] »

pekk wrote: post #83
pknerd wrote: post #63

In my last job I had faced similar situation. The HOD wanted to get rid of me to colleagues and higher-ups. Unlike you I did not hesitate termination. Once my dues were clear I wrote an email to entire department, HOD, HRM and CEO and shared everything. The end result, I felt satisfied and some other pals saved themselves by quitting themselves. Moral of the story: Be Courageous. If you are skilled you will get a job…

"If you are skilled you will get a job" implies that the only people who aren't getting jobs are unskilled, and that is very much false.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

#174

Post by freedevbootcamp »

Break out the resume and polish it up. Use all 8 hours a day to find a job while at work. Connect to recruiters on LinkedIn and use every job search engine to get yourself out there. Resign on the 29th day. You will be penalized for 2 weeks of unemployment but it will be worth it. Good Luck.

Re: Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

#175

Post by 6d0debc071 »

jqm wrote: post #171
6d0debc071 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is disloyalty to the entity which is paying you. My employer is my client, no more, no less. I am employed to produce a set of work for them, and to employ my skills to particular ends as defined in the contract, and that's it. Their relationship with their other contractors is their business. This idea that because someone pays you to do work you should serve their interests in all things - even to the extent…

Loyalty is a deprecated value I suppose. So let me put it like this... we are riding together in a boat. The boat has a hole in it. Not my problem?

It's your problem, but the situation is not analogous.

If the boat has a hole in, we're both going to drown fairly soon if we don't work together.

If you act in the interests of the company, you take on significant personal risk that you'll be thrown over the side of a boat that may or may not make it to a figurative port - i.e. the company lasts long enough for you to get what you wanted out of the contract - for reporting that someone looked fishy around the engine room.

Don't get me wrong however: Loyalty is valuable. I just choose to assign it to people I respect and who care about me, rather than those who waves a cheque book at me and expect to own my soul when they rent my labour.

Re: Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

#177

Post by baldfat »

AH4oFVbPT4f8 wrote: post #98
baldfat wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would counter. Don't get fired. If need be resign, but I would do everything I could to not be fired. Secondly I have thought that I was doing a good job but I was viewed negatively. I later found out that an ounce of criticism or attitude ruined my whole perspective. I had to learn that one comment or one person didn't decide who liked me. I just rolled with the punches and talked to managers and other non-related…

I don't agree with resigning. If you resign and are in the US, you give up the ability to file for unemployment. I would start cutting expenses and start looking for something new until that day comes.

In the US you have limited Unemploment benifits. YOu get only so many months of full coverage and you get limits in other areas.

If your single and you might get married make sure you don't take full unemployment benefits and maybe you just need to sponge off friends and families because getting fired and getting a "Do Not Rehire" puts a HUGE hole in your employment history.

Re: Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

#178

Post by drchase »

s_q_b wrote: post #114
learnstats2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was up to me, I would have whistleblown already. I said that first. I guess the manager understands that the OP will not whistleblow. Indeed, the OP doesn't seem to have considered it an option. This is exactly what allows the manager to treat the OP this way. The OP needs to show the manager otherwise. Even if the OP finds a moderately nicer job later on, which I am sure they will, they need to do more to avoi…

Just to be perfectly clear, blackmail is not an option, as it is both illegal and unethical, and I will not do anything of the sort. I would also like to ensure that I correct the original comment in that I do not have sufficient legal knowledge to be certain that anything illegal or improper was done, which is why I am consulting with counsel before acting.

Not much to add given that you are consulting with counsel, but be aware that one extremely valuable attribute of legal counsel is that is where you deposit any documents that you think might be relevant -- you will surely be required to surrender all employer IP if fired, if you think there are legal issues that require you to retain documents, it's almost necessary to have them in a lawyer's care (and the lawyer will tell you what to say). I think and (IANAL) it would be something like "I was concerned about the circumstances of my termination, and I felt I needed to consult a professional to be sure I took the right steps." Which is true, yet vague, yet also not overtly threatening.

I would be wary of whistleblowing, but I would also be very wary of saying anything more to your employer than what is legally required (or than your lawyer advises). I don't see that we have socially made whistleblowing worth the risk to you, therefore, you should not take that risk, but if it helps your case, your severance, whatever, for your soon-to-be-former employer think that you might make trouble for them if they piss you off even more, that might be okay (if they're certain that you might make trouble for them, that's another matter and maybe a problem).

For the non-legal and probably more useful advice, this does not sound like a job that is worth keeping. You can't fix a bad boss, you're not paid enough to fix a bad boss (it ought to be the case that you would get a massive bonus for fixing a bad boss, but sadly the world does not work that way) better to look out for your own sanity and well-being. Don't burn bridges, don't slack off, I also don't recommend knocking yourself out in an attempt to save your job because (you wrote here for advice, here it is) it's not worth saving, DO prepare a resume and send it out, and follow the usual recipe of applying to as many places as you can stand managing all at once. It ought to take a few weeks for the sent resumes to turn into interviews, so it's not that likely to take too much of your (not-slacking-off) time. Ask your lawyer exactly what to say if a potential employer asks why you're leaving, because it's a delicate dance and there's things you probably cannot safely say (for example, what you've said here...).

Re: Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

#179

Post by supertruth »

mhurron wrote: post #150
supertruth wrote: post #128

Okay it seems like you want to keep this job so that's step one. The goal here is to keep the job. Now just arrange the chess pieces to accomplish your goal. Here are two things I would keep in mind: 1. Do exceptionally good work for the next 30 days. Bust Your Ass. Most likely this is his way of reasserting his superior status over you since you went out of line. You need to show him that he's the master and you're…

> 2. DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL. Only say good things about your boss and how's he's so intelligent and you really respect his leadership and blah blah. Swallow your pride and openly acknowledge his criticisms of you and say this whole process is helping you grow as a person and be better. Repeat: DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL NO EXCEPTIONS IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU THINK THEY ARE YOUR FRIEND. If you have negative thi…

Thanks for calling my ideas idiotic. It probably seems that way because you're missing the subtext of this advice.

At worst HR/Legal will recommend that you get fired, at best you aren't on their radar. There is a very low chance that HR will go against your manager and fight for you. They just aren't incentivized that way: their job is to protect the company, not ensure fairness. HR people are awarded for cleaning up messes, not for interfering with the management structure. They risk more downside to support a single employee. In general HR departments are in a position of weakness when compared to management in companies.

His priority is to stay at the company, not make a change. The best way to maximize his chances of staying at the company is to not make a ruckus and do what his manager says. If he wanted to maximize his chances of making a change, however, the best way would be to go to his manager's manager. His manager's manager is actually incentivized to ensure his reports are doing good/non-illegal work. His chances of getting firing go up by taking that route, but in the slim chance his manager's manager has detected these sorts of problems in the past and is currently waiting for the straw that broke the camel's back then he might be successful.

I'm not advocating not making a change in the company, I'm just being logical w.r.t. to keeping his job right now. The spirit of my advice is "die another day." Right now he has very little influence to actually make change. Better to advance those goals once he's in a more stable position in the company. For him, the stakes are too high to risk martyrdom.

Re: Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

#180

Post by jqm »

6d0debc071 wrote: post #175
jqm wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loyalty is a deprecated value I suppose. So let me put it like this... we are riding together in a boat. The boat has a hole in it. Not my problem?

It's your problem, but the situation is not analogous. If the boat has a hole in, we're both going to drown fairly soon if we don't work together. If you act in the interests of the company, you take on significant personal risk that you'll be thrown over the side of a boat that may or may not make it to a figurative port - i.e. the company lasts long enough for you to get what you wanted out of the contract - for re…

I hear you on owning the soul and dis-respectable people. I don't think we should let ourselves be abused. In the case of the original poster, if what he says is accurate (we don't know, we aren't there), he is being abused by a rouge boss who is also creating risk for the company. My opinion is that he should fight this and make others aware of what is going on and try to have it change. Or else leave on his own volition if it is systemic of the larger organization and there is little chance of winning. But don't be abused and don't let the organization that is paying him be abused.
Post reply on HN