Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

nytimes.com

41–50 of 60 posts

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#41
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, I guess it's because people don't understand that drones aren't autonomous, and think Skynet or robot overlords fly them and pull the trigger.

No need to guess, the reason why people are uncomfortable with drone strikes is in the title: "U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes" If you're a soldier on the ground you have useful heuristics for determining who is an enemy combatant ("are they shooting at me?") that drone operators don't. You also have mechanisms for limiting collateral damage that drone operators don't. Which isn't to say that…

Soldiers in Iraq mostly died from IEDS, car bombs and ambushes where you have no way to identify the enemy before he attacks you.

Heck we levelled Hamburg and Dresden, burned Tokyo to the ground and nuked two Japanese cities. Why even talk about drones?

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#42

I'm mostly depressed that the President only apologizes to the families and promises an investigation when it's American and Italian innocents who were killed. Hundreds of innocent Pakistanis, Afghans, Iraqis, Yemenis, and Somalis have been killed by US drones. And only the worst of those cases has even a mention been made of any review of policy or procedure. In summary: :(

Just to drive home the point further, if it's a US citizen who gets killed, but that US citizen has an Arab name, no apology is apparently needed[0].

Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was a 16-year-old American boy, eating dinner at a restaurant in Yemen while searching for his father. Nobody denies that he was completely innocent, and even the US government simply says he was "in the wrong place at the wrong time"[1].

You'll also notice that the media oftentimes use the euphemism "US-born" to refer to people like al-Awlaki and his father, but refer to Weinstein as American.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki

[1] We can also question why that place was "the wrong place", since (A) we're not at war with Yemen, and (B) the target of the drone strikes (his father) was also a US citizen who had never been convicted of any crime, but that's a separate matter, since it's not analogous to this incident.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#43
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how is that different from any air strike?

It's not. But drone strikes are far more common currently, and are killing far more people than any traditional air strikes being used lately. If we were currently carpet-bombing Tehran and killing thousands of civilians, I would be more upset about that. But right now, drone attacks are one of the least defensible things our government is doing.

> But drone strikes are far more common currently

I here this from time to time, but I wonder how true this actually is. My guess is that most military actions are not publicly reported, so we don't have number to compare.

My understanding is that there are a few ways to reach out and kill people from far away:

- snipers

- artillery

- ground-to-ground missiles/rockets

- air-to-ground missiles/rockets

- ship-to-ground missiles

- aerial artillery/cannon (Spectre, A-10, Apache)

- air-to-ground bombs (for argument let's assume only "precision" munitions)

- drone strikes (which are a kind of air-to-ground missile, but we'll beak them out as distinct for fiscussion)

Before drones became common, all of the rest of the above were used frequently in both Iraq and Afghanistan (and in every previous modern conflict), yet there wasn't this kind of "let's have a problem with this specific method" and plenty of wedding parties and civilians were killed. Yet with the exception of snipers, none of these involve getting personal with the targets, and collateral damage is well known to happen with all of these methods.

In context, drones aren't really any different, yet they seem to be singles out because...?

My guess is that it's a fundamental lack of understanding of what drones are and how they work. My guess is that most people out there who specifically have a problem with drones, but don't comment on the rest of the methods, have a niggling suspicion that they work by showing a picture of a bad guy to a drone or letting it sniff a captured sock or something and sending it out on a kill mission and this cold computer killer terrifies them because of too many movies. But they effectively work the same as any of the other methods.

The same missiles, probably the same cameras/sensors and the same operators, ordered by the same command chain with the same legal oversight make the same decision to shoot-to-kill in the same way. Arguments about not wanting to put U.S. pilots in harms way also ring false since nobody the U.S. is shooting at has an effective airspace denial system in place.

The only thing the drones bring to the table is loiter time, and I'm not sure that "as loiter time approaches balloon or kite" crosses some kind of moral threshold that wasn't already crossed by any other listed method. There simply wasn't this kind of anti-AC-130H or anti-A-10 movement around when they were chewing up people. Nobody came down on Helicopter gunships, as a class of killing devices, even after Wikileaks' Collateral Murder came out.

It seems to me that the moral problem that should be addressed is killing people from far away, not the specific method you use to do it.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#44
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what risk does the average pilot in the USAF face - its not like they are facing any! air assets and any ground assets will have been obliterated.

There is definitely some risk.[1][2] Aviation is inherently a risky endeavor. Operations in war zones make it even more so. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_accidents_and_...

Yes, but it does work out as maybe 20 offensive planes crashing over 10 years and presumably hundreds of thousands of flight hours; and with only a few fatalities at that.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#45
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question, but seriously, no. You can actually test that hypothesis yourself very easily. Go look at some of the more gory scenes from Saw, or the Aliens movies. If you're like many typical internet people they won't even phase you. Now go and find some of the typical rotten.com / liveleak content and see how much you can stomach of that. Likely not a lot and not easily at all. Knowing that something is real make…

" ...being on the ground with a gun makes you more likely and less inhibited... " It's actually the exact opposite. Seeing the person you're about to kill makes it harder to pull the trigger (given a normal psychology, for whatever that's worth). If you're interested, the book linked to below goes into great detail about this. http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0316040932/

Yes, but historically armies have proved more than adept at drilling those instincts out of people.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#46
post #2

Why do people single out drones? It's not like it would be different if there were a pilot in the thing. I guess it's just good old FUD.

For the same reason "mass surveillance" is different than "targeted surveillance". The US government is performing "air strikes" orders of magnitude more often than actual jet-based air strikes, to the point where it now kills people based on surveillance algorithms rather than a proper investigation of the target. It's going to be yet orders of magnitude worse when autonomous drones arrive (they are probably already…

> it now kills people based on surveillance algorithms rather than a proper investigation of the target.

False. Algorithms should form part of a proper investigation of the target. Proper use of computers allows you to rule out innocents and provide intelligence in order to pick better targets. They can perform the grunt tasks, collecting and presenting reports and allowing the humans to focus on all the data available in order to more accurately make the decision.

The algorithms should and do not dispatch the drones and do not make any type of decision like this.

If information derived using computers didn't play a role in the modern militaries of the world, they wouldn't be modern militaries.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#47

I'm mostly depressed that the President only apologizes to the families and promises an investigation when it's American and Italian innocents who were killed. Hundreds of innocent Pakistanis, Afghans, Iraqis, Yemenis, and Somalis have been killed by US drones. And only the worst of those cases has even a mention been made of any review of policy or procedure. In summary: :(

Just to drive home the point further, if it's a US citizen who gets killed, but that US citizen has an Arab name, no apology is apparently needed[0]. Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was a 16-year-old American boy, eating dinner at a restaurant in Yemen while searching for his father. Nobody denies that he was completely innocent, and even the US government simply says he was "in the wrong place at the wrong time"[1]. You'll al…

It is too bad Europe does not have the guts to stand up to the US.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#48
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not, but I doubt that the people complaining about drone strikes are perfectly OK with air strikes. Drones are the most visible and most rapidly expanding facet of the problem so it's not unreasonable to focus the discussion around them.

Right, so it seems like a distraction to me to focus on one facet of something not to agree with rather than the whole problem. Turned around the problem with this argument is that it's solved by getting to know the people you are about to kill. Which sounds rather silly if the point is to protest killing people at all. Or if we stay focused on drones, just kill them with one of the other dozen remote methods we have…

Drones make indiscriminate killing more economical (in terms of U.S. lives and $). Politically attacking drones is a pragmatic, reasonable strategy with which to oppose indiscriminate killing.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#49

I'm mostly depressed that the President only apologizes to the families and promises an investigation when it's American and Italian innocents who were killed. Hundreds of innocent Pakistanis, Afghans, Iraqis, Yemenis, and Somalis have been killed by US drones. And only the worst of those cases has even a mention been made of any review of policy or procedure. In summary: :(

Just to drive home the point further, if it's a US citizen who gets killed, but that US citizen has an Arab name, no apology is apparently needed[0]. Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was a 16-year-old American boy, eating dinner at a restaurant in Yemen while searching for his father. Nobody denies that he was completely innocent, and even the US government simply says he was "in the wrong place at the wrong time"[1]. You'll al…

>if it's a US citizen who gets killed, but that US citizen has an Arab name, no apology is apparently needed

It helps if they are the son of a "senior talent-recruiter and motivator who was involved in planning terrorist operations for the Islamist militant group al-Qaeda"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#50
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. But drone strikes are far more common currently, and are killing far more people than any traditional air strikes being used lately. If we were currently carpet-bombing Tehran and killing thousands of civilians, I would be more upset about that. But right now, drone attacks are one of the least defensible things our government is doing.

> But drone strikes are far more common currently I here this from time to time, but I wonder how true this actually is. My guess is that most military actions are not publicly reported, so we don't have number to compare. My understanding is that there are a few ways to reach out and kill people from far away: - snipers - artillery - ground-to-ground missiles/rockets - air-to-ground missiles/rockets - ship-to-ground…

If we picture the political landscape of acceptable war tactics as a battlefield on which "war hawks" (seeking primarily to maximize military efficacy) and "peacenicks" (seeking primarily to minimize collateral damage) fight each other, then the items 1-7 on your list represent entrenched warhawk fortifications while the 8th represents a recent and relatively undefended warhawk raiding party. The peacenicks are attacking it.

In this analogy, your argument is "the peacenicks aren't effectively fighting the warhawks because they are only attacking the raiding party rather than the entrenched defenses." I have an alternative theory: they're attacking the raiding party because doing so gives the best expected ROI.

Post reply on HN