Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 60 posts

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#11

Post by bane »

brosefstalin wrote: post #5
NateDad wrote: post #2

Why do people single out drones? It's not like it would be different if there were a pilot in the thing. I guess it's just good old FUD.

Maybe because it's so impersonal to pilot a remote-controlled toy on a screen thousands of miles away that when you see little black and white pixels moving on your TV, you have less moral qualms about pushing the little red button on your joystick? Maybe because you're so far away from that reality -- literally and figuratively -- that you're not experiencing your conscience and the fear of consequences quite the sa…

It's a good point, but it's also not clear if the experience is materially all that different from dropping a bomb from 30,000 ft.

The view from a Spectre gunship isn't materially all that different than from a drone operator's position. And there's quite a bit of evidence that drone operators do suffer similar psychological problems as in-theater operators.

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/06/a_chilling_new_post_traumati...

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#12

Post by happyscrappy »

1971genocide wrote: post #9

I wonder what happens when a non-US entity flies a plane to kill US citiz .. At least OBL had a valid reason ( for ppl who don't know this - he did it as a revenge to what israel was doing in Lebanon ). Killing civilians without reason is genocide and history will judge US appropriately.

While it is tempting to hope that at some point the US will disengage and let the world fend for itself it is not in the interest of anyone except ISIS, Russia and possibly China. I would personally love to see Putin haranguing Europe.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#13

Post by bpodgursky »

1971genocide wrote: post #9

I wonder what happens when a non-US entity flies a plane to kill US citiz .. At least OBL had a valid reason ( for ppl who don't know this - he did it as a revenge to what israel was doing in Lebanon ). Killing civilians without reason is genocide and history will judge US appropriately.

Yeah... no

> At least OBL had a valid reason ( for ppl who don't know this - he did it as a revenge to what israel was doing in Lebanon ).

Not even going to touch that.

The fact is, the US operates out of Pakistan with Pakistan's permission. If Pakistan ordered the US to leave their airbases and stop doing strikes, the US would have to, or lose a ton of forward bases. A few thousand US personnel in Pakistan isn't going to stand a chance if Pakistan tried to forcibly remove these drone bases.

Yes Pakistan's government complaints publicly about these strikes, but that's all PR -- they know they don't have a military capable of maintaining their own sovereignty in Waziristan, and need US support there. But they won't admit that publicly.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#14

Post by da02 »

1971genocide wrote: post #9

I wonder what happens when a non-US entity flies a plane to kill US citiz .. At least OBL had a valid reason ( for ppl who don't know this - he did it as a revenge to what israel was doing in Lebanon ). Killing civilians without reason is genocide and history will judge US appropriately.

I thought most of the planning and funding was done by Saudi factions: https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/11/the-secret-saudi-ties-... Greg Palast of the BBC also said something similar. OBL didn't seem capable of it from what I've read.

Disclaimer: I don't agree in killing innocent civilians to protest US/Israel/etc policy.

Sidenote: the US supported terrorism in Central America, calling them "freedom fighters" in the 80s. Of course, coups and violent overthrows go back to the 50s... even further back in Asia to the 1800s. Also, the US also helped train dictators through the "School of Americas". Michael Moore's "TV Nation" did a report on it on FOX in the early 90s.

The point being: get ready for more killings: by "moderate fighters", mercenaries, or drones... or fighter strikes like Bill Clinton's Balkans and Iraq hi-jinks. Americans won't really make drone kills an issue. Abortion and school funding... now that's something much more important.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#15

Post by jjoonathan »

bane wrote: post #10
NateDad wrote: post #2

Why do people single out drones? It's not like it would be different if there were a pilot in the thing. I guess it's just good old FUD.

I dunno, I guess it's because people don't understand that drones aren't autonomous, and think Skynet or robot overlords fly them and pull the trigger.

No need to guess, the reason why people are uncomfortable with drone strikes is in the title:

"U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes"

If you're a soldier on the ground you have useful heuristics for determining who is an enemy combatant ("are they shooting at me?") that drone operators don't. You also have mechanisms for limiting collateral damage that drone operators don't. Which isn't to say that these tools are employed all the time, but at least they exist, whereas with drones the official strategy for limiting collateral damage is "re-define 'enemy combatant' to mean anyone of military age killed by the drone."

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#16

Post by bane »

jjoonathan wrote: post #15
bane wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, I guess it's because people don't understand that drones aren't autonomous, and think Skynet or robot overlords fly them and pull the trigger.

No need to guess, the reason why people are uncomfortable with drone strikes is in the title: "U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes" If you're a soldier on the ground you have useful heuristics for determining who is an enemy combatant ("are they shooting at me?") that drone operators don't. You also have mechanisms for limiting collateral damage that drone operators don't. Which isn't to say that…

how is that different from any air strike?

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#17

Post by afarrell »

brosefstalin wrote: post #5
NateDad wrote: post #2

Why do people single out drones? It's not like it would be different if there were a pilot in the thing. I guess it's just good old FUD.

Maybe because it's so impersonal to pilot a remote-controlled toy on a screen thousands of miles away that when you see little black and white pixels moving on your TV, you have less moral qualms about pushing the little red button on your joystick? Maybe because you're so far away from that reality -- literally and figuratively -- that you're not experiencing your conscience and the fear of consequences quite the sa…

But a pilot of a manned aircraft has a limited, possibly zero time to observe the people in question. A pilot of an unmanned aircraft has a much longer time.

""" “Remotely piloted aircraft pilots may stare at the same piece of ground for days,” said Jean Lin Otto, an epidemiologist who was a co-author of the study. “They witness the carnage. Manned aircraft pilots don’t do that. They get out of there as soon as possible.” """ http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/us/drone-pilots-found-to-g...

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#18

Post by skywhopper »

I'm mostly depressed that the President only apologizes to the families and promises an investigation when it's American and Italian innocents who were killed. Hundreds of innocent Pakistanis, Afghans, Iraqis, Yemenis, and Somalis have been killed by US drones. And only the worst of those cases has even a mention been made of any review of policy or procedure.

In summary: :(

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#19

Post by anon1385 »

NateDad wrote: post #2

Why do people single out drones? It's not like it would be different if there were a pilot in the thing. I guess it's just good old FUD.

You do realise that people were criticising US bombing campaigns and assassinations long long before the use of drones?

People talk about drones because the vast majority of "blowing people up" that the US does these days is done with drones. Before drones people complained about conventional bombers or cluster bombs or land mines or carpet bombing or agent orange. In most of these cases the issue wasn't the technology itself, it was the fact that the technology was being used for mass killing of random civilians. If the US was flying drones about just to take pictures of things people would talk about them far less.

I hope that addresses your concerns.

Post reply on HN