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U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#21

Post by mauricemir »

lostcolony wrote: post #7
NateDad wrote: post #2

Why do people single out drones? It's not like it would be different if there were a pilot in the thing. I guess it's just good old FUD.

Because they're concerned that the lack of a pilot, and thus, pilot risk, means the US is more willing to order attacks, since there is no political risk to themselves should something be shot down? Because they're concerned with the change in warfare this heralds, that we're moving to using technologies that explicitly and autonomously target civilian areas, and deciding who 'enemy combatants' are based on president…

what risk does the average pilot in the USAF face - its not like they are facing any! air assets and any ground assets will have been obliterated.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#23

Post by jjoonathan »

bane wrote: post #16
jjoonathan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to guess, the reason why people are uncomfortable with drone strikes is in the title: "U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes" If you're a soldier on the ground you have useful heuristics for determining who is an enemy combatant ("are they shooting at me?") that drone operators don't. You also have mechanisms for limiting collateral damage that drone operators don't. Which isn't to say that…

how is that different from any air strike?

It's not, but I doubt that the people complaining about drone strikes are perfectly OK with air strikes. Drones are the most visible and most rapidly expanding facet of the problem so it's not unreasonable to focus the discussion around them.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#24

Post by dalke »

happyscrappy wrote: post #12
1971genocide wrote: post #9

I wonder what happens when a non-US entity flies a plane to kill US citiz .. At least OBL had a valid reason ( for ppl who don't know this - he did it as a revenge to what israel was doing in Lebanon ). Killing civilians without reason is genocide and history will judge US appropriately.

While it is tempting to hope that at some point the US will disengage and let the world fend for itself it is not in the interest of anyone except ISIS, Russia and possibly China. I would personally love to see Putin haranguing Europe.

There is no reason to go from one extreme - the 'cops of the word' to quote Ochs - to extreme isolationism on the other. There are many stages in between.

FWIW, I believe many residents of Okinawa Prefecture would be interested in having US military off of their island, should the US withdraw. Should we do that, I suspect Japan would quickly develop nuclear weapons.

I also strongly believe many in Latin America would prefer a strict isolationist policy by the US. Many remember how the US supported right-wing authoritarian regimes in the 1970s and 1980s, don't want the US meddling in their country, and have little to fear from Eurasian threats.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#26

Post by mc32 »

lostcolony wrote: post #7
NateDad wrote: post #2

Why do people single out drones? It's not like it would be different if there were a pilot in the thing. I guess it's just good old FUD.

Because they're concerned that the lack of a pilot, and thus, pilot risk, means the US is more willing to order attacks, since there is no political risk to themselves should something be shot down? Because they're concerned with the change in warfare this heralds, that we're moving to using technologies that explicitly and autonomously target civilian areas, and deciding who 'enemy combatants' are based on president…

You bring up great points, but I don't think the nyt actually cares. They bring this up because it will resonate and people will read it and that brings them money and it gives them 'Intellectual credibility'. If they actually cared they'd lobby against they'd donate their profits, etc.

They pretend to care about this change in warfare. And, realistically, even if they could affect US policy, there is absolutely no possibility they'd be able to affect how China Russia or Iran decide to use drones. Yes, the US is the one with drones in the news but not the only nation which will ever use them. The cat's out of the bag. It's not like we're going to go back to having people complain about the undue risk we put pilots under when we have less risky alternatives. It's also more costly to put pilots up there, they tire, make mistakes, etc. Drones can keep flying without need for rest.

I'm being cynical, but that's just how it is.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#27

Post by higherpurpose »

NateDad wrote: post #2

Why do people single out drones? It's not like it would be different if there were a pilot in the thing. I guess it's just good old FUD.

For the same reason "mass surveillance" is different than "targeted surveillance". The US government is performing "air strikes" orders of magnitude more often than actual jet-based air strikes, to the point where it now kills people based on surveillance algorithms rather than a proper investigation of the target.

It's going to be yet orders of magnitude worse when autonomous drones arrive (they are probably already in testing now) - and make no mistake, autonomous drones is an idea about as irresistible to the government as mass surveillance. Moore's Law will make autonomous drones too hard to resist.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#29

Post by happyscrappy »

dalke wrote: post #24
happyscrappy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is tempting to hope that at some point the US will disengage and let the world fend for itself it is not in the interest of anyone except ISIS, Russia and possibly China. I would personally love to see Putin haranguing Europe.

There is no reason to go from one extreme - the 'cops of the word' to quote Ochs - to extreme isolationism on the other. There are many stages in between. FWIW, I believe many residents of Okinawa Prefecture would be interested in having US military off of their island, should the US withdraw. Should we do that, I suspect Japan would quickly develop nuclear weapons. I also strongly believe many in Latin America would…

No it won't happen. Europe being America's hand puppet is the cornerstone of US power.

Re: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes

#30

Post by skywhopper »

bane wrote: post #16
jjoonathan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to guess, the reason why people are uncomfortable with drone strikes is in the title: "U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die in Drone Strikes" If you're a soldier on the ground you have useful heuristics for determining who is an enemy combatant ("are they shooting at me?") that drone operators don't. You also have mechanisms for limiting collateral damage that drone operators don't. Which isn't to say that…

how is that different from any air strike?

It's not. But drone strikes are far more common currently, and are killing far more people than any traditional air strikes being used lately. If we were currently carpet-bombing Tehran and killing thousands of civilians, I would be more upset about that. But right now, drone attacks are one of the least defensible things our government is doing.
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