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What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

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Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#141

Post by welshguy »

stegosaurus wrote: post #9

I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try. The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally broken. It's a sort of bandage over a huge chasm of differences. For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop cultu…

Similar story here. South Wales steel town -> Oxford (Engineering Science). Late 1970s. I'm certainly wealthier than my parents and home town peers (you can still - easily - buy a reasonable 4 bedroom house there for 100K) but the baggage is still a burden. To misquote a popular aphorism: You can take a man out of the poverty, but you can never take the poverty out of a man.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#142

Post by julian_t »

dsp1234 wrote: post #51
spiritplumber wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boot…

Obviously a side note, but I did a test on a topic similar to this. My SO convinced me to try out a custom shoe place (highly reviewed, and recommended) on the theory that if I was only going to buy one pair of shoes, that I should at least have a quality pair to wear around. The results from that (sole) experiment were that the shoes lasted longer but not so much so that they beat out multiple pairs of cheaper shoes…

I've done something similar, but with different results...

I wear down heels very fast, and used to get through mass-produced shoes with moulded soles far too quickly. It annoyed me hugely that I had to throw away a pair of shoes whose uppers were in perfect condition, but whose soles couldn't be replaced.

In the end, I bought a pair of decent leather-soled shoes for $350 and get them heeled regularly; that was 7 years ago, they're still going strong, and I estimate that they've saved me a ton of money.

And as a "third way", I've kept my eyes open in thrift (UK = charity) shops, and have managed to get excellent, repairable footwear for next to nothing. My current pair of oxblood brogues by Allen Edmonds cost me $25, has been going for 5 years now, and barring accidents will last me until I'm well past retirement...

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#143

Post by stegosaurus »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #132
stegosaurus wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The injustice is wealth inequality in general. UK elite universities are constantly railed on for not admitting more poor students, but part of the issue is that we simply have lower levels of attainment. Equality there is not possible without negative discrimination. How do we fix wealth inequality? Well, we probably can't. But I do think we could go further towards providing necessities to all, which would solve a…

That's probably not true. Poorer students may in general have lower attainment, true. But there are so many, many more of them - even a 1% rate of rich-student attainment means there are still an order of magnitude MORE qualified poor students wanting to attend college. No discrimination necessary to address the current imbalance - just blind admission.

Even if you accept that premise (I don't, because private schools in the UK are ridiculously far ahead of state schools), the poor kids don't even apply.

I didn't even know what University was. Oxford or Cambridge especially - it's like Hollywood, celebrities, it's a thing that exists that you're just not a part of.

I kind of grow tired of these discussions and just pop in every now and then because I feel like the gap in understanding is just so massive that it's fruitless.

The information asymmetry is enormous. A middle class person has friends and family that work in high status fields. They can directly see that you do A, B and C and end up with D.

Hyperbolic extreme analogy - imagine that you walk up to a remote tribe with an iPhone and tell them they could make a bunch of money making apps for it.

They don't have a clue, right? That was me at age 18. I didn't know how people became doctors or lawyers or computer programmers or whatever. That was for 'other people'..... everyone I knew worked in retail.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#144

Post by Squarel »

stegosaurus wrote: post #9

I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try. The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally broken. It's a sort of bandage over a huge chasm of differences. For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop cultu…

I agree, and I have not even gone to an "elite" university. I attend a standard university outside of the UK, so no one here even knows my upbringing, but it is still there.

Even though no one here is looking down on me, or cares what I wear, or thinks I sound a certain way (they all love that English accent ;) ), to me, I feel like I do not fit into their world. Things I consider "posh" or "middle class" feel alien to me, and I am aware that I have a defensive response which means I try to make fun of people baking their own bread, or going on foraging sessions for food, even though I actually really wish I had the slightest idea how to do it, and did not feel like such an idiot for being a beginner at both. People are quite happy to teach me how to make bread from scratch, or how to recognise mushrooms, so the feeling awkward is all from my side, and I know it is a problem I need to deal with.

Coupled with the feeling uncomfortable in my new social environment is the comments I get from back home "Oh, so you think you are better than us now?". I spent 10 years prior to university pretending I could not do maths, and had no interest in intellectual subjects, and it is a hard learned behaviour to shake, and unfortunately, it took me several years at university to become comfortable discussing intellectual topics, without defaulting to my past behaviour.

For me, that, rather than money is the divider. Everyone at uni is on student income, so all relatively broke, and university here is free, with the government giving us money each month as well, but the attitudes I grew up with and around are a whole different story, and it is those which hold me back at times.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#145

Post by smeyer »

alexashka wrote: post #124
smeyer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the top ivy league schools, they do in fact also pay for rent, food, and even clothes (Harvard has a fund to pay for winter coats for students on certain levels of financial aid.) Harvard also has a fund to pay for some school-sponsored social events (like formal dances) as well as certain types of travel. There is still a notable class difference and there are still issues of money around different types of activ…

If this is truly the case - I don't understand the notion of working part-time and studying at a top school. What is that all about? If it is as you say it is - then this is just folks boo-hooing about the challenges of... well... being in challenging situations. You are going to be put in those when it comes to your health, relationships and likely money, sooner or later. Everyone goes through that at some point in…

I think it's a bit unreasonable to describe it all as just "boo-hooing". Obviously everyone has challenges, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worth considering how these could be mitigated. There is a real problem of social stratification and isolation that affects many students at these top schools in a way that substantially impacts their experiences, and while it may be difficult to resolve, it's probably worth thinking about.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#146

Post by JoeAltmaier »

stegosaurus wrote: post #143
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably not true. Poorer students may in general have lower attainment, true. But there are so many, many more of them - even a 1% rate of rich-student attainment means there are still an order of magnitude MORE qualified poor students wanting to attend college. No discrimination necessary to address the current imbalance - just blind admission.

Even if you accept that premise (I don't, because private schools in the UK are ridiculously far ahead of state schools), the poor kids don't even apply. I didn't even know what University was. Oxford or Cambridge especially - it's like Hollywood, celebrities, it's a thing that exists that you're just not a part of. I kind of grow tired of these discussions and just pop in every now and then because I feel like the g…

Really? No way to know what college was about. No media in the UK, no radio, no access to the internet for the poor? Ok, that's a culture gap I'm going to just have to take your word for.

The article was about posh universities going after poor students, and making education work for them. Like minorities, its important to seek out Qualified candidates (not just some quota system that allows anybody). So the 'no poor kids apply' hurdle is moot. The Uni is supposed to be looking for them.

And they do exist. There's absolutely no monopoly on brains among the upper class.

And about how far ahead 'private schools' are - some of that is true; some of that is mythology, perpetrated by TV. In the end, its the students that make the reputation - and by definition, public schools have poor students, and poor students underrepresent achievers.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear your experience, its not all that different from mine.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#147

Post by duckingtest »

vcxzxcv wrote: post #70
stegosaurus wrote: post #9

I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try. The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally broken. It's a sort of bandage over a huge chasm of differences. For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop cultu…

Thanks for this post. I'm debating applying to a state University right now. Coming from a poor background (and still being poor) I find it hard to relate to a lot of my peers. You speak of "dropping baggage", and for me, this is next to impossible because of my poor dental health. As soon as I open my mouth people assume I must be some meth head. My mom has dementia and can barely take care of her self and my dad is…

I think you should try medical tourism. The price of travel and accomodation is insignificant compared to the savings.

Also, don't put it off. You can literally die from ignoring cavities.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/06/09/318212444/a-reaso...

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#148

Post by stegosaurus »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #146
stegosaurus wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you accept that premise (I don't, because private schools in the UK are ridiculously far ahead of state schools), the poor kids don't even apply. I didn't even know what University was. Oxford or Cambridge especially - it's like Hollywood, celebrities, it's a thing that exists that you're just not a part of. I kind of grow tired of these discussions and just pop in every now and then because I feel like the g…

Really? No way to know what college was about. No media in the UK, no radio, no access to the internet for the poor? Ok, that's a culture gap I'm going to just have to take your word for. The article was about posh universities going after poor students, and making education work for them. Like minorities, its important to seek out Qualified candidates (not just some quota system that allows anybody). So the 'no poor…

I don't think that it's easy to explain; there almost aren't words for it. Whenever I discuss this in person I tend to ramble and hope enough meaning gets across.

In the US do you have the notion of 'poshness'? For example, making fun of someone who speaks a certain way, or turns their nose up at e.g. fast food? That's a massive thing. We live in tribes... pronouncing words correctly is a thing that results in ostracization here.

It pains me to say this, but here we are:

I am wealthier than my parents and hometown friends because at some point I realised what was going on, and took an active decision to take a different path.

I had to internalize the notion that I am better than them. I will work harder and smarter and I will beat them. Do you see that?

I had to beat them in order to win. I have to compete against my fellow human beings.

I have to reject their customs and use the customs that winners use.

Do you get that? That it's not just 'do A B C'? That the actions I took and continue to take have the effect of further seperating me from my friends and family? Every time I pronounce an 'a' or an 'h' in their presence it's effectively me grandstanding the fact that I'm not 'one of them' now.

Reading this post makes me seem like a colossal dick, right? But it's just a written description of social 'mobility'.

I am not better or more deserving than them. I just play a game. A game of emulation. I was born with talents, arbitrarily, and somehow that means I win and they lose. Meh. I think you just have to live it.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#149

Post by JoeAltmaier »

stegosaurus wrote: post #148
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? No way to know what college was about. No media in the UK, no radio, no access to the internet for the poor? Ok, that's a culture gap I'm going to just have to take your word for. The article was about posh universities going after poor students, and making education work for them. Like minorities, its important to seek out Qualified candidates (not just some quota system that allows anybody). So the 'no poor…

I don't think that it's easy to explain; there almost aren't words for it. Whenever I discuss this in person I tend to ramble and hope enough meaning gets across. In the US do you have the notion of 'poshness'? For example, making fun of someone who speaks a certain way, or turns their nose up at e.g. fast food? That's a massive thing. We live in tribes... pronouncing words correctly is a thing that results in ostrac…

Hm. In Iowa folks say 'aint' and pronounce 'washington' as 'warshington'. When I'm with locals, I do that too. When I'm at work, I don't.

Its just adaptation, not betrayal. Maybe the worst thing is feeling ashamed of it? I'm rather proud of where I came from, and like to introduce my colleagues to the phrases and pronunciations of my hometown. But in the American Midwest, everybody plays the game "where are your people from" and there are no winners. Just interesting background.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#150

Post by gaius »

cperciva wrote: post #138
lordnacho wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was one particular Rolls driven by a prof who'd written THE book on Physical Chemistry, I remember seeing that quite often. Did you not think people wore some strange clothes? I was back last week and saw loads of kids in suits. These days it just screams "first day at work".

There were always some students wearing sub fusc, but that hardly qualifies...

You can always spot an Oxford man... Because he'll tell you :-p
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